Episode 039 - Gideon Adey, CEO of Gurooh LTD

Welcome to out-of-home insider today's guest is Gideon Ady. Gideon is the founder of guru, a premiere out of home consultancy that hinges on the principles of sound fundamentals and accountability. A thought leader in the industry. Gideon has watched the evolution of out of home across three decades and brings a unique wisdom that we can all learn from whatever your role may be coming to you from all the way across the pond.

Gideon. Welcome to the. Thank you very much. So, uh, thank you for making me feel so welcome. Um, three decades does sound like a very long time. Um, yeah. W when you add up what I've done, it, it does end up being three decades. I don't feel like I've done three decades of this. I still feel like I'm learning.

Well, you look like you're just getting started. You're you, you're looking at like fresh and ready to go. I will take that compliment. And, uh, I'm very glad of the lighting effects that are helping that happen.

That's it like a little movie magic to get us going, getting to talk to me, if you, if you could sum up three decades in a, in a bit of an origin story. No one's path to out of home has been straight and clear. What's yours. Okay. Well, I mean, as a lot of people join out of home and not realizing they have, um, and I still have that in media, um, selling press space, uh, find style.

Um, I got an interview for comfortable mills and island. Um, and, uh, I went to see them and, and I, I'd never seen posted apparently. And they said, well, where do you work? Stanford? So on Snapchat every day. So you, you pass nine billboards on that walk every day. Really? I remember all the ads, but didn't remember the structures and that's kind of what really got me into it is a passive medium people.

Remember the campaigns? I don't remember them. I mean, people like me remember the structures that. Um, but then we goes out to look for a billable part from you and I, um, but people remember the ads, it goes in, in this kind of almost subconscious way. Um, and not really sold me early doors that a couple of years with them.

So then I had to carve a couple of years with a company called Maura Pharrell. Um, actually a channel and then joined, uh, a small specialist called Portland. Um, and we bought a company called how's. The publicity limited is lighter and informed. Um, both companies had offices around the world already, and then that became the on a kinetic network.

Um, and that was all backed by WDB money. Um, and so we became the buying shop for WPP. Um, then it's still a sales job and probably is still today, um, working on, uh, tobacco brands, car brands, alcohol brands, um, I mean our business was 35%. Um, and, uh, and we were selling large amounts of imagery nationally, um, and likewise buying it, um, to these staples.

I mean, we could see the writing on the wall. I mean, tobacco is not good for you. Um, who's who's I hear is not good for you. Um, cause increasingly being demonstrated, that will be very good. Um, and the industry pivoted fairly quickly, um, um, most. Entertainment and FMCG, whereas previously we might get maybe 15, 20 of the top 200 advertisers using out of home, um, at door.

Um, and now I think probably 198. Um, and with we're the shop window for all kind of virtual brands, um, the client complexion has changed. Um, when I joined the industry. I was shocked at the lack of financial transparency, um, and the lack of, uh, understanding of who was actually seeing these posts. Um, and, and also there was little in terms of inspection, um, or not many people did an inspection.

Um, the opportunity existed, particularly photograph post. To grow, um, the same board within the same, what we call internal cycle. Um, and that gave out of him a really bad reputation. Cabo is the leader. Um, and again, within five, seven years, that kind of thing, really. So Barbara is obviously wiped out financial irregularities and I would say 10, 12 years ago, we were probably the most.

Beat him in the UK finances, um, inspection became standard. Um, and we launched a post-doc audience measurement system, um, and that ran across a roadside, um, to an extent buses and ultimately underground and that's evolved ever since. Um, but those issues of. Transparency, I believe still exists. Um, although they've been moved on, um, and with the digital screens, but taking a photograph of it being on once is not really a demonstration of being there for the whole period of the, um, challenges that challenges that can be met.

Um, I found

my path through.

No, no, because you've touched on a lot of things that I think are worth unpacking. And one of the things that jumps out right away is, is the topic around transparency. And, you know, obviously measurement creates accountability because when we're measuring it, now we're inspecting. And if it's not really up, we're going to tell, because the results aren't there and we know that the medium works.

What was it? What were the major cases? That took place to really, it sounds like accelerate that timetable on creating a more transparent experience for brands. And in terms of transparency of the measurement, um, piece, it was, uh, again probably 28 commissioners, uh, launched the first transit data 2012. Um, and that's, uh, what we call our audience currency, which is route, um, The equivalent of GFR, I guess.

Um, but over here, the difference here is that in the UK, um, most of these kinds of industry currencies are built by what are called joint industry committees so that the business is owned by the seller and the buyer. And on the board, you have representatives of the media agencies, their trade body, and the advertisers and their trades.

So you ended up with transparency in terms of process, methodology, um, methodology, but it's long complex and quite expensive. I mean, for a market that's now doing about a billion, uh, no, this year about a billion, uh, one book you ask in a country that's probably the size of caliber. Um, yeah, 6% of all media, 10% all display media, but it was a market that's worth investing in, in terms of that audience number and getting an audience number in a very complex medium, where someone drives past the board gets out of the car, there's a supermarket then goes to the gym, then get something Metro then goes back to their car.

You want to know you want to track that journey. So complex and quite expensive whole industry believe it's still critical for us to compete with TV and likely online to have robust metrics. You and I will know what a good board looks like you. And I will know what a great road to be on. Looks like the premium location as he walking for subway station.

That's what we do. And we can. But when you're sat at a desk somewhere and you're buying a million impacts, 10 million impressions, you want to know that they actually add up only how many people, who, the quality of those impressions you need to trust the data. Um, and trust is incredibly important in everything.

It wasn't for the federal reserve. If it, if it wasn't for the bank of England, you know, the paper it's printed on, there's very little value. It's the backing behind it. You know that behind that piece of paper, there's an awful lot of thoughts, stuff that I don't understand, don't pretend to understand, but I'd trust them.

And that's why audience audience, when it comes to. Someone somewhere else, making a decision about how much goes on TV, how much goes on posters? How much goes online with the complete mix will do in terms of them selling shampoo or cars or whatever. Um, all those, and that's where that kind of stuff started from and 28.

And we're still running out. Now that contract runs up until 2023. Um, and. And I've moved from Connecticut. Um, and I, the barest thing, but one of the, one of my roles is working within Ipsos, um, who are the main research body behind data. Um, so I sat on the written methodology committee for 12 years on the board for probably six.

Um, and now I guess on the, on the, the factory end of actually creating this. Um, I've always believed that you've got to know what you saying, and I don't just have great. It looks wonderful. But who else is in that post? Tell him, telling the story behind this. You know, we know that your campaign is designed to do this and talk to these people to your point.

Is it doing all of those things? And if it is. How are they responding? How are they engaging? What are the results? How, how far do you go down that rabbit hole? One of the conversations it's maybe seemingly died off a little bit because foot traffic has been limited through social distancing, but all of a sudden we were going to tie up out of home to foot traffic, but we know that there's a lot of things that have to happen.

Yeah. Walking in somewhere. How do you, how do you think we approached the measurement? There are layers in this, um, and each layer is the foundation. Um, I'll come back to it, but did my best to go up and we'll come back to that. Um, hopefully the next layer is who saw it and you've got to know that data's credible.

That data's well-researched the next layer is what did they do now? And that's the really difficult part for any we call out of home, uh, broadcast, um, because it's not one to one, it's a one to many medium, uh, whether that's in a gym, possibly in a, in a cubicle is not in a gym on subway station. It's a one to many meetings.

We are broadcasting the message we can do quite targeted broadcast. Now pick out one time, pick out one area near an outlet, but it's always gonna be. So his natural ability is in brand building. Whether that's building a brand, literally someone walks into a retailer or reminding them of a brand as they walk into a retailer, even if they don't purchase that day, they've been reminded of that brand is a brand building and measuring it is a nightmare.

And I think it got to the point of measuring it completely. A lot of us will be out of work. I agree. It's a bit, depending on what your task is, you measure it in different ways. If you're running a brand only campaign, then a couple of thousand people find out what we thought before they saw it. Um, if you're looking for driving two foot stool, um, you can do that to an extent with SDK data, um, or mobile app.

Um, where you can see that that device has been close to a particular pesticide and that device has been clusters. You can't really tell what got into the school where you just know if there's a health food shop next to them, academe McDonald's, um, you know, really know which one they went into, but if you're selling space to McDonald's, then it's the McDonald's, but it's still good indicative data.

To the fact where they didn't go to the store that week doesn't mean that the post has had no effect. Um, so there's all these labs that is on this. I mean, you can put direct response mechanisms on hold, touch, things that you want to code. There's lots of ways of tracking indicative behavior, um, that person's having an effect.

Um, but I don't think we'll ever capture all of it and the way that you'll never capture all of. Um, the only way that you can get close to that is, um, when you're doing large quantities consistently. So I'd recommend everybody to large quantity of at-home consistently. And then we can measure that seems like a fair ask, do it in wait, and then there's something to measure and it is a, you know, sometimes.

The hard thing to do, but walking away from a small deal because you know, it's just not going to be enough weight to garner the result that, that the pro perspective advertisers looking for. How would you recommend to there's a lot of business development folks, a lot of account executive types that listened to the show.

How would you suggest that they approach the idea of audience selling to a new advertising? It depends what the advertiser's after. Um, if, if an advertiser is looking for directional sign says, Hey, I'm next left. Then it's a matter of just giving them the number. Um, if the advertisers is looking to sell a particular product, might not be selling an outlet.

Um, Unilever. Um, then it's, it's a matter of trying to get under the skin of who they're really trying to reach. I mean, who, they've got a Jaguar that they're looking to reach people who are in market premium car buyers will buy in the next couple of weeks, which is a very small group of people and people who are considering pregnant.

Um, and from that you can say, well, I don't know if I've got that in my data. Um, but I do know that those people are likely to be upscale, uh, own their own home. Um, there's a lot of attributes. And if you can talk to your buyer about painting a picture of who this person is that they really want to reach, and you can match that in the data, you've got your path, whatever you're using, then you've got a key.

It doesn't matter how many people see your poster. Only 10 of them are the people who were. The find who they want. And then it's a matter of optimizing the stock you've got, um, which ones is the best again. And you may end up buying a bull that plays to less people in total, but plays better. You know? Um, the other thing that people consider quite a lot is, is quality of conversion.

Um, so if I'm going to 110% of my audience, um, 200,000 people possible, 2000 people across the board. And 5%, I get the same number of people who are within my organs, but the quality of conversion is, is better on every board, um, proportion of the audiences by people. Um, and that's a good indication that, you know, there's no research.

That's a good indication that that's a better board. Um, we did a lot of work, um, and they were very keen on the desktop. No way I want to be on this side. This is why people that live, they live at the end of that road. And they work at the end of that. The fact that it's above an area that you don't necessarily, um, it's the people.

Clearly, if you close the store matters. And I think that that's a, it's, it's a, it's an important point to make. Not just, Hey, I can, I can reach your target audience. I know some different ways to really be, uh, be targeted in this approach, but also understanding the customer journey and how they're likely to come into exposure or interaction with.

A particular advertiser is, is, would that be a fair summation out-of-home advertising can touch all those layers now is it? You've never heard of Jaguar the car. We need to do some work that you've heard of the car, but you think it's a little bit out of date for you. You think you need to do something.

Repositioning the brand is being a bit sporty. Is it because it'd be too expensive or too unreliable? There's kind of big messages and stuff. That's right at the top. Um, but then you also want to be half a mile down the road from the Jaguar dealer. So when people start considering a premium competition, I know where that now you look at dealerships, I'm guessing it's the sign that, and then they put on that.

Exactly. I mean, they, they will spend a lot of money to make this stuff look. Good. Good reasons. I mean, you're, you're spending tens of thousands on a vehicle, um, and gonna look that good. So things like that. Yeah. The frame's gotta be built. It's it's gotta be the right position. Um, we have, um, And it's not like wracking

my hands, but it's a small poster on the lower deck of the bus, literally the car behind it. And no one else they sell. Well, the grip, the car insurance, the research they deliver brilliantly against the Mercedes drivers. They deliver brilliantly against. But there was no way Mercedes is going to go on that panel.

So there's a, there's a, this is what I love about the business is all of my data. Geekness unlike, this is what the data says. You still got to be a human go, but just look at it. Okay. This one's a little bit further down the road and the one that would be ideal for you, but just look at. Um, so there's always that bit of human in there and a thousand impacts against a bus shelter is not the same as a thousand impacts against right.

Different, different formats are going to carry a different level of authority. There's a different level of perception maybe. And that's an important consideration to make a sign. Isn't just a sign right in, they're not sized, but to be a bit humorous it's, they're not all created equal. Different placements can, can position your brand differently.

So I think that's an interesting point that you bring up about the rear, the boss and Mercedes. As we, as we continue moving through this kind of post social distancing world and the new norm as, as you will. Um, and considering how much the landscape has changed with brands that we see in out of home.

Are there particular categories that you think could be especially poised for, uh, a strong second half or some areas that we should be focusing on that maybe the industry is overlooked? Uh, well, I think there's a lot of pent up spend, you see this coming out of China and now in Italy, um, nest of, in Germany so far, a lot of pent up demand for very premium ultra Bri.

Um, these are the entitled audiences who, you know, I mean, I haven't bought a Bulgarian bag since even if they make bags, we're going to really watch for like six. And I will be back. Um, I wouldn't even know how, um, so there's up market there and we, and we see that and it's easy to see that in the Uber premium element, um, because there are very small outlets for that.

And they're generally clustered see those people standing, um, has got to trickle down into, into other categories. Um, people need a way out, um, I don't know whether where you are with your, uh, alive, you will go to cinemas, but those kinds of that kind of entertainment experience that brands, um, I'm not trickles into phone operators.

Again, I don't have a package as a Stoller, but, but here, you know, you'd get a package. Um, which three sports streaming, three social, um, that kind of experience that's been held back, I think is. It will go next. So it's not necessarily a category spend, um, but an approach to travel. Um, but, but there will be, there'll be categories in there.

I mean, there'll be a lot of what we call staycations. Um, you know, it's, a lot of people are going to be less comfortable getting into a plane. Um, and the great American road trip is able to cross the way. Um, we see it, the movies, um, everywhere. I mean, is it an Indian cinema as much as you do a new case in around, um, how often have you actually gone and done that

tourist boards, lodges. I mean that, let people explore the myth and abusive of the great. Yeah, I think that it's, it's a, it's a great point. And already seeing some of the redistribution locally here. I have a lot of those, um, sort of destination type places that maybe would have advertised further away, right.

To attract those people flying in and that sort of thing. So a lot of these deaths destinations going to the within three hours model, so it could be tourism bureaus. It could be the attractions themselves that traditionally spent out of the market to pull people in. Are now spending more locally that maybe you'd never considered before.

Uh we're we're seeing, we're definitely seeing it here in the states. Uh, some of that hotel chains and lodges, um, you know, if you're doing a two, three day journey to get somewhere rather than a four hour flight, we've got to stay somewhere, got to read something. Um, so these kinds of things, I think might be some interest.

What we're seeing here a lot is, um, FMCG, but ultimately we can see. I'm coming back from the strong, um, and we're seeing, again, some pants up auto

dealerships able to be open and still selling through this. They've just started to reopen, but people haven't, people just haven't been going. Sure. Um, and here we're very envious and the S have you guys in the proportion of the market, Directly by brands. Um, I'm by Davis, I'm here probably 85% of the market is bought by agencies.

Wow. Yeah, it used to be more like 60, 40. Um, but again, this is history. I mean, in, in the days when everything had to be the guy or gal up a ladder with a bucket of paste, um, you want to send a thousand. Rather than one, because you sell a thousand of them. The of installation is the same, but the cost of sale per unit is much lower.

So you can drop your price. Bringing all the big brands do brilliantly. Now is the cost of sale, all them. Cause I mean that involves a guy who have a set of clubs in the back of a car going knocking doors. Um, and that's, that's expensive. Um, now is the cost of sale. Um, the ability to even buy online that market is starting to react.

We energize again, God at once the one half a mile down the road, gimme, gimme a hot take. If you will get in just your, your opinion. Um, On on exactly that, right. As we see more platforms coming online that are designed to move, remove friction from the buying process, make it easier for advertisers to buy out of home.

There's a lot of concern, at least that I saw on the local level from. Some of the more seasoned and tenured, um, media reps that this is all going to eliminate them. They're going to go the way the Buffalo because of programmatic and the ability to buy online. Okay. Okay. Um, everyone is scared of trains and, uh, and if that were the case, then yes, they should be scared.

Well, I don't believe it will go that way. There, there are people that want to buy programmatic. My programmatic, I mean, real time buying, um, automated, guaranteed. I'm not sure of real-time bidding. Um, I mean, th the systems are that degree, real somebody I'm not, I'm not sure if that's a big, fair. Um, the, the idea is that look at the way that we are started.

We looked at TV as having all the money and we chased the money. Um, and now we look at, you know, Google and Facebook, all the money, and we checked. Um, they do a very different from what we do. You will see some online money coming into, out of home during the time, and that will come through the trade desk, um, on the programmatic platforms, um, you can see some automation, um, of the existing mechanism working, um, I agency and seller coming together, removing the spreadsheets, automating that.

Um, you will be again, if it's transplanted can be verified now there's automated, guaranteed buying where it's like, well, I'm not sure which boards I'm on. To be honest, I don't really mind. I just want to make sure I'm buying these hours. That's my audience. That's just pure applied audience trading. Um, but you won't find people queuing up to buy out of home unless itself.

So you still got to convince people the power of Einstein. You can create the channels to remove friction, and there will be some Boston in administration roles. I'm sure over time, but not over a period of time that doesn't allow to re-skill people. Um, people don't naturally go buy posters because it's this passive medium people always want to see their ad on the.

Um, they might know a board close to them. They want to be seen, um, people buy online because it feels safe. Um, because there's data there, but there's so much data. It makes it feel like it's safe. Although most of that data is a lot of that fake. Um, um, you always need to sell book because people don't appreciate that.

It's a medium. They remember the ad. But they don't remember where they saw it more often than not. You've got to remind people where they are and that comes back to where I first started on it. It's such a passive medium, and that's one of his great powers. Don't remember where you saw the ad. So it almost feels like a personal recommendation because it's, I don't know why I know this brand.

I don't why I feel comfortable with this brand, but I do not have been thrown down your throat. So I wouldn't be worried about that. There's a lot to be done. Automating the existing process and having standard ways of working. Um, I'm going to see a bit of that with the IBO IBO USA, or at least reading that stuff.

Just if everyone has a standard way of doing something, it makes it easy to buy across everybody. What happened in the UK? Um, along in Europe, um, let me central and Western here is the company's board. And then you ended up with four standards because there were four companies. Sure. Um, what you see in more fragmented is the technologies creating that standardization as a translation competent  in India and India, you have, um, but it standardizes how they're available to buy so that that's a removal of free.

Um, I'll ask you to find more stuff, but I don't think it, it removes jobs, um, but always be aware and in any market snake oil, um, it's going to be moving a dashboard, you know, what's their outdoor history now, is it, is it a couple of people in an office, the great dashboard and then an Excel, do you use.

Sure. Sure. And we see a lot of that, right? Uh, our proprietary dashboard, every everybody's got a proprietary dashboard for somebody that's maybe on the other side and listening to this conversation, maybe it's a brand considering out of home, where are the places that they're most likely to find friction and how can they best navigate it if there's, if it's their first time considering out of all, where do you think the one thing is to know for a first.

First time at a home brand. Uh, I spent 21 years at kinetic. So I would suggest that you need to find someone who aggregate for you a bigger brand. Um, so that if you, if you're looking for, I mean, here, a national campaign will be reasonable for you. Um, you need someone who's going to take that grief away from, um, and that can be a salesman.

Imagery who can take that grief away. Resize copy gives you credible independent digest on who's seeing it, that it went up, that it was seen by the people. This is friction. And whether that's a person taking that friction away or humbly taking the friction, whether it's some point it is one of these, uh, distance away.

Um, I think that anybody buying it got to have it simplify complex in the way that physically people have to go and put the stuff up. Meanwhile, stuff that, um, yeah. Get an expert. Sounds like it sounds like finding a guru could be a.

I worked 21 years for a specialist. So I believe in specialism, but I know those skills also exist in sales. No, it's good to know. Even, even for myself, right. As a relative newcomer to, to out of home, I was kind of trying to piece it together. What's the value there. There's so many pieces, right? We see the LUMAscape of, of, out of home.

Who are all these people and how does it all fit together? So, uh, understanding that, having that single point of contact, somebody who could, who can play liaison and just, uh, be the boat captain, if you will, and navigate you through the channels, that makes a lot of sense. It makes it makes it easier to want to do it.

It's going to be easy, easy, otherwise. You'll go online because that's easy to buy and they give you enough data to make you feel comfortable, whether that data is real or not, but they give you enough of it. Um, the issue, I mean, there are lots of issues online. I don't really want to get into that, but, um, the two big ones are, uh, fruit.

Um, which often is the publisher as well. And often isn't the buyer's fault because a lot of this fraud is incredibly. Um, and the number of mouths treated. Now, you spend a dollar and the publisher gets 35 cents. There are so many people in the middle. Well, if you could go direct, begin the dollars with the spice, not only are you going to buy something that relatively is a fraction of the cost.

That's. I mean, I don't know what an inch by an inch and a half compared to 40 plus foot wide. Um, and you're guaranteed to deliver it to human beings. That sounds like a, a pretty good value proposition to me. I don't know about the market there, but certainly over here, you don't see butts standing around.

I haven't seen any yet, but I, I suppose anything's possible in the world, in the world today, getting we've reached a point in the show that I call questions from Carlos, Carlos Devola, he's the marketing manager for InMotion media. And he said, Tim, can you, uh, can you start asking all the guests a couple of standard questions?

Cause it would be fun to, to get to know them beyond just the out of home stuff to your game. You, I do that. Yeah. All right. Let's see. This is a tough question because I think everyone loves that at home so much that the answer has been, I'd be doing something else in out of home. But the first question is if you weren't an out of home, so let's maybe out of home doesn't exist, what would you be doing?

I'll give you two answers in media. It would be cinema just because it's big and. And just stop it. And, um, I would be, uh, treading. Oh, German. Very cool. Very cool. What are you most excited about right now? It could be in the industry. We something personally, what are you most excited about? Wow. Um, Getting my kids back to school would be a good start.

Having a pint, having a drink with friends sounds real good. Being able to hug my mates. Um, it's, uh, again, it varies where you are expanding, but, um, there in theory, you can go to a bond from July before, um, have to stay a meter and a half of. After having a couple of beers will say,

I mean, I've been working from home a lot recently for a number of people have getting back out there. Yeah. Simple pleasures. Yes. Same people in. For sure, for sure. I took my truck for, uh, for an oil change the other day. And my friend is the service advisor at the dealership. And I just couldn't, I hadn't seen her in six months and just had to give her a hug.

And it was, it was weird. It was weird to hug like another person. That's not your immediate family. It was a strange thing. The other thing that's probably high on my list at the moment is waiting for the. Because somewhere out there in the mail, isn't iHeart overweight, we just did so giddy in order to hat, like right before COVID shut the whole world down, uh, in terms of, I guess, ordering hats and, uh, it's somewhere.

Where is it now? Latvia is traveling the world. All of us. Yeah, by the time it gets in here, it's going to have like a gold reward card from some shit at the very least

I'm excited. That's what I'm most excited about is for your head to finally get to, and I appreciate you. Appreciate your support in the show and showing your love for out of home. And, uh, we look forward to a day when things are back in stock and shipping, doesn't take a month. What I'm most excited about?

How about inspiration, motivation, reflection. Are you a podcast guy? Do you read, where do you go for those sorts of things and recommendations? I listened to a couple of podcasts, but no, mostly I, I conferences I find, uh, inspiring on occasion. Or if the people I follow on LinkedIn or, um, uh, often from territories that you wouldn't expect to be busy on out of home.

Um, again, a lot have honestly I have my kids and that kind of simplicity of view on life and not clouded by all overtime. Um, yeah. And, and, and honestly, I really like the countryside, but it's sound terrible. There's nothing, no buildings. I build. Um, that sounds like a nice place to get away to getting out with the dogs and getting out of there.

Very good. Get in. Where can folks learn more about you find out more about what you do, where's the best place to find? Um, you can find me, I've got a website, uh, which is a group are and.co.uk. Um, or you can find me on LinkedIn as, uh, as Gideon Navy or. Um, which is why I share things. I find interesting thoughtful around the world.

Um, there's a lot going on. There's, there's something about out of home where you get on a plane when we can, and you go to a country that you hardly know, and the out of home folk just welcoming. Um, it's just, I don't know what it is, but there's something family about it. Um, and so anyone who's just joined the.

This is your line. It truly lives. I, again, I was, I am on the record being critical of billboard, specifically billboards being used for automotive advertising. I was not a believer once I saw how out of home impacted brands inside of Google analytics, and I could see it, there was a tangible lift. There were more people going to the website.

There are more people buying stuff. There were more people doing the things that were fundamentally important to a business. Once I saw that. The hook was set and, uh, the rest is history, as they say, out of home has its hooks in me. It does. It's amazing. It's amazing. And there's no better, no better format to just use as a, a, as a creative canvas for whatever you can imagine.

We, uh, we often describe it as the second oldest.

And if you're not familiar with what the first is, you can check the show notes below and get in. It's been a pleasure, sir. Thank you so much.

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