Decoding the Buyer's Journey: 'Hard to Measure' Marketing Insights from Jeremiah Prummer, Founder of KnoCommerce

Tim Rowe: How do you balance the obsessive need to track and measure every marketing dollar with understanding the full funnel buyer's journey? How do you turn qualitative insights like post-purchase surveys into quantitative insights that inform media strategy and drive growth? And how do you measure the elements of your marketing mix that are the hardest to measure, like TV, radio, and out-of-home (OOH)? Jeremiah Prummer is going to help us understand some of those questions today because Jeremiah's company, KnoCommerce, observes more than a hundred million post-purchase survey questions a year with more than 700,000. Jeremiah Promer is going to help us understand some of those questions today because Jeremiah's company, KnoCommerce, observes more than a hundred million post-purchase survey questions a year, with nearly 17 million coming in November alone for more than 3,000 brands. To help us understand which tactics are pulling their own weight, Which ones are over-performing and which ones should be retired? But why post-purchase surveys in the first place? Why not another dashboard and shiny analytics report instead of a good old fashioned question asking? We're about to find out. Jeremiah, welcome to the show.
Jeremiah Prummer: Thanks Tim. It's really good to be on.

Tim Rowe: It's going to be a lot of fun. We talked about in the lead up more than a hundred million survey responses, almost 17 million in November alone. Black Friday. Black Friday, Cyber Monday, more than 3000 brands are working with KnoCommerce. Where did the Genesis idea for a post purchase survey platform come from?

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah. Uh, so to be fully transparent, so we, we definitely market ourselves as a survey platform, post purchase survey platform, uh, or post purchase survey solution. But the reality is that the goal has always been to be a customer insights platform. And I think the, uh. The just to kind of break that down a little bit, I see that a little bit differently than so many other tools that are out there that exist for helping you understand. buying behavior on like a website or e-commerce site level. So, you know, there's lots of really great tools that help you understand LTVs and, you know, if some product purchase journey, if somebody bought product A, which of the three next products are they, which of these other three products are they most likely to buy next, all that kind of stuff. There's a lot of really great tools to help you break down those things. But really there's nothing in the D2C ecosystem to help you understand what it is that motivates your customers to buy, why they buy it. And actually, to really go back on why I'm so interested in this, when I was a kid, my parents owned a grocery store, health food store, and I basically grew up in that thing. So I was six years old when they started it. And when you're in that context, you see the same people sometimes every day, certainly once a week, twice a week, right? Same person walks in, you know, the type of vehicle they drive, you know, the type of clothes they wear, you have some idea about their family, what it is that why they're buying certain types of products, you know, maybe they're a vegetarian, or maybe they have a gluten intolerance or whatever it is, right? And like, you start to learn these things about people. But the personal stuff. Yeah. Pretty, pretty personal. Right. The kind of thing that somebody doesn't you don't see that on a website. That's just the reality. It's true. That doesn't show up in GA. No. But what was really interesting as you look at that and we couldn't tell you specifically what those people bought. We couldn't tell you when they bought what like we might have some idea. Right. Sometimes there was a person who special order a certain product all the time or you see them enough. You kind of have an idea of what might be in their basket. But especially in the early days, we didn't even have a digital system. It was literally just keying in, you know, the numbers on the old fashioned cash register, mechanical keyboard type of cash cash register. Yeah, I think I guess we had a digital one, but it was it was still like ahead of the times. Yeah, there's no like there's no scanning, none of that kind of stuff. You don't know actually what they're buying. You're typing in the price. So that was the you know, that's where we started. And in that context, you really don't understand the buyer journey from a standpoint of what they're buying, how frequently they're buying, all of those kinds of things. But you actually have a much better idea of what you can sell to that person because you know something about them. Right. And so I've now spent my entire adulthood working on the Internet. I've been in the commerce ecosystem since 2012 in some capacity or another. And what I always found really interesting is we don't have that information online. And so that really ultimately is the gap that we're trying to bridge with with what we built. And the reality is We can never fully bridge that gap. It's just not going to happen. But there's a lot of elements of that that we can bring into the digital commerce experience. And ultimately, that's what I'm trying to do. So very long answer, but short version is we do post-purchase. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. And we we primarily focus on marketing attribution. That's the number one use case. But my real ambition and vision with this is to go well beyond marketing attribution into really understanding what it is that actually motivates your your different segments of customers to buy products from you and help you target more of those people. So we've actually we're talking about this more publicly now. We have a beta we rolled out in December. And then in twenty twenty four, we're going to have a lot more of this coming, but just kind of helping people better understand not just the path to purchase, but the why behind the purchase.

Tim Rowe: And it almost seems like a contrarian kind of concept itself of DTC, e-commerce, having the need to measure what are traditionally hard to measure channels, which obviously, or I assume represents them scaling beyond just the traditional toolbox of only online. What are, as you, as you seek to understand why customers buy things, it's, I saw it on a TV ad. I searched you on Google. I bought it from an Instagram story ad. all of those things coming into play, what the brands that are working with you, how are they identifying that this is a weakness in their current marketing system?

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah. Um, it's kind of a journey, honestly. So what we see happen a lot is that, I mean, you know, that's most most agency brands are Facebook and Google or Meta, I guess, and Google first and foremost, right? Sure. That's where the ad spending goes. That's the default. So you take your dollars, you put them into those places. And to be clear, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. Those are amazing engines. There's never been buying engines that exist like those two platforms just hasn't existed before. In the context of Google, you literally have people searching for solutions to problems, and Google is surfacing the right thing at that moment, right? That didn't exist 20 years ago, even. And so that's amazing.

Tim Rowe: Probably Yellow Pages was the closest thing we had to that.

Jeremiah Prummer: And then it's like, well, you're looking for something locally, you're looking for an Is it going to be the right keyword? What type of business actually sells?

Tim Rowe: I've got no reviews. Do they offer the products and service I need? Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. It's such an incredibly powerful platform.

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah. So it's incredible. So I never want to downplay these platforms. Right. So Google has been incredible. It's the ultimate way to get somebody who's looking for a solution to a problem to buy something. That's just the reality. Meta is the ultimate Like they they know how to find the person who's ready to buy. And part of that, I think, is their reach. Right. Like they touch so much of the Internet and they know so much about the people. They've got. Almost two decades of history about people, right, and they were able to track a lot of data that you can't track now, so they've got more data on their algorithms, like they just have a huge advantage from an algorithm standpoint. And so they are amazing at finding the person who's ready to buy a specific type of product, right? Sometimes they already know about your brand. Sometimes they don't. But the way that I talk about that is usually those people are in market already, right? Like they're already primed to buy what you're offering for both those Google and Metta. That's not 100% true. But one of the things I talk about is like if somebody. If somebody buys your product, clicks, sees, sees your product today, clicks the product, buys. they are already a primed buyer. Like you don't just do that with something unless you have a need for it or unless there's something about that that's really compelling that speaks to something that's happening in your life. That's just right. There are probably a few exceptions, but like very, very rarely does a buying behavior happen like that. And so those platforms have just done the best job of finding those people and getting them to buy. And obviously in those platforms, there's still people that aren't necessarily ready to buy, and they're just stumbling across things that are interesting. But what's made them so powerful is that ability to take somebody who's ready to buy and get them to buy. Um, so that's, that's what we see with those platforms. And so most brands start there, but then you get to a point where you run out of people that are ready to buy your products. And that probably doesn't happen for most brands until you hit pretty significant scale. But at that point, you need to find a way to get your product in front of new eyeballs. And I think that's where we really come in and where we're, we're really beneficial is in that process. So when you're trying to look at. Well, two things. One, if you want to validate your spend and say, Hey, I don't know if I don't know if that is actually useful for me because my buying journey looks weird, right? Like there's a lot of products that just don't sell in a day. That's the reality. And so I think for those brands were really helpful in that context. But then the second way, and probably the way that we're most helpful to larger brands is as you're adding in, you're trying to find new ways to reach new eyeballs. That is where we become really, really valuable. And so, you know, when you're looking at TV ads, when you're looking at out of home, when you're looking at podcasts, influencer campaigns, all these things where you're taking, you're moving beyond the, I'm living within the Facebook ads manager into, I need to find new ways to reach new eyeballs. That's where we really see the biggest impact, I would say.

Tim Rowe: It seems like the challenge with that becomes now with multiple in points, with multiple inputs is, is having noise, noise and being able to separate the signal from the noise. How do you start to solve for things like that as you introduce new channels to make sure that that picture is as clear as possible?

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah. Uh, it's a great question. So the, and this is actually, it's one of my favorite things to talk about. So let's go to the, uh, the, his, the old school. How did you hear about a survey or howdy? Howdy ho is some people call it. There's a few different ways of talking about it. Howdy ho. I like that. Yeah. Uh, is, is, uh, asking, how did you hear about us? It's a very simple question, right? The problem with that question is think of if you stop and think about a buying journey for a second. There are people who have a single touchpoint with your brand and they buy from that touchpoint. That definitely happens, especially from a channel like Google. It exists. But the reality is that a large percentage of your customers are going to have multiple touchpoints with your brand. And so if you just ask a single, how did you hear about us question. You're leaving that up to interpretation for the person who just bought from you. And so what we say is you should actually break this down into three key questions and then a couple of other questions kind of mixed in here. So the first question is, how did you first hear about us? You're asking them for the initial discovery touch point. How do they remember discovering your brand? And I like to touch on this. People will say, well, I don't remember what I ate for breakfast yesterday. How am I going to remember? Uh, how am I going to remember that I discovered a brand on Instagram six months ago? I'm like, well, that's actually the point. So what I want to know is how do they remember finding my brand? It may not be the first touch point, but it's probably the most impactful touch point, right? It's the one they remember.

Tim Rowe: So we're looking for that. What's the, what's, what's the last thing you remember?

Jeremiah Prummer: Yep, exactly. So that's that's touchpoint number one. That's what we're looking for as the first touchpoint, right? Then we're going to ask a couple of follow up questions. So one of the big issues is, let's say somebody found you on Facebook. How do you know if it was a family member that posted about you? How do you know if it was a paid ad? Those kinds of things, right? There's a The, the, the reality is that a customer doesn't often know the difference between a paid ad and an organic post. That's right. And that's intentional, right? We all love that. That's why we spend money on those platforms. If it was always clear what an ad was, we'd probably be making a lot less money, uh, all of us. So what's that?

Tim Rowe: As that R.I.P. newspaper. Yeah. Just thinking about those big inserts like that was obviously an ad. Yeah, you just skip it. Try to get to the funnies.

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah. And so in that context, we like to ask questions that get into like a good example of this is asking if somebody said they found you on Facebook, ask who posted about us. And that gets you a little bit more query, right? Oh, that's a good follow-up. Yeah. So was it your brand? Was it us, our brand, right? And you just phrase that however it makes sense in that context. Was it a friend? Was it an influencer you follow? So just asking a couple of those questions. Usually brand posts are not organic, they're paid. The reality is brands just have very little distribution these days. So it kind of gives you a little bit more of an understanding of the paid versus organic distribution there, influencer impact, all those things. So we recommend asking questions like that, and that helps break through a little bit of that organic versus paid noise. And then we ask, what brought you to our site today? We want to know, did they come from an email? Did they come from a text message? Was it a Google search? What is the thing that actually made them come to the site to buy today? After that, we want to know how long did you know about us before placing your first purchase? And the value of that question is twofold. Yeah. So one, it will show you that your buying journey is a lot longer than you think it is. So if you're looking at Google Analytics, Google Analytics is going to show you most of your customers make their purchase within 48 hours. Well, that's 48 hours of their that's within 48 hours of that session being created, which makes sense, right? Like, you go to a website, it creates a web session that takes for like, most people are going to buy within 48 hours of that happening.

Tim Rowe: I'm on your website, because I'm about to make a purchase.

Jeremiah Prummer: Exactly. I'm already I'm already here because I want to buy usually is the way that that works out. Right. So it is going to be under 48 hours most of the time. But if you look at actual customer buying journeys, they're usually significantly longer. So we, we see data on, uh, I think in the last 30 days, this question, how long did you know about us before placing your first purchase has been asked answered over one and a half million times. Wow. Um, so we see a million plus responses a month basically on that question. And so that question. Based on that, we know that 60% plus of people take more than a week to make their first purchase. So if you're looking at ad advertising windows in the context of a week, you're missing out on a ton of the long tail impact. So that's kind of point number one. Point number two is that it actually differs a lot based on the channel that they discovered you through. So if their first discovery touchpoint was on a social channel, it usually takes them longer to buy than if it was word of mouth or an influencer or Google. And so like for Google, we see most people by day one or within seven days at a minimum, that's 50% plus that are in that seven day window. If you look at meta or tick tock, um, it's usually a little bit longer. You look at something like TV or YouTube, it's even longer typically. And so that's what we want to help brands understand is like, Hey, you, when you're putting a dollar in, your goal is to get a dollar out in seven days. Sure. That's great. But sometimes you also want to understand that there's a much longer tail impact here than what you can see in that first seven days. And, uh, sorry, it's usually not a dollar back.

Tim Rowe: It's like $2, uh, but you want, but at least, at least, at least, but you know what, in 2024, I think there's going to be a lot of people just hope to break even rates.

Jeremiah Prummer: Yup. So That's the, um, that that's really the way that we look at it. So if you, if you really structure a survey that way with those, especially those three key questions, you're going to see. A lot better. You're going to have a lot better understanding of what the buying journey actually looks like for each discovery channel. And what are the things that are driving that last click, uh, purchase? Um, so that's the way that we break it down.

Tim Rowe: Super interesting. I'd love to, to, to maybe double click into the. That, that trend of the first touch on social leading to a longer purchase cycle, whereas the, the word of mouth more organic. And this is, this is me a little bit of setting up for the, the superpower of out of home, which is instant grassroots credibility at scale, authority, awareness. It's, it is that word of mouth amplifier. Can you can you go more into that? What are the what are the factors behind word of mouth that you see or speculate are driving that faster decision?

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah, it's a great question. So trust is definitely a piece of it, right? Like trust has a massive impact. The other thing, though, that we know has a huge impact is who the purchase is for. And so we track this data as well. And one of the things that we find, like this time of year, word of mouth goes up tremendously in terms of the percentage of people who say they discovered a brand from word of mouth and are buying from that brand. Wow. And it correlates really strongly to who the purchase is for. So if the purchase is for if it's a gift, word of mouth is really hot. And it makes sense, right? Like I just was talking to a brand you would know. They've been around for a long time and they they basically like it, the recipients of the product appear to be probably teenage boys, right? I don't know for sure. But like, that's what it looks like. And so probably what's happening is that these and this is over the last few weeks. And so over the last few weeks, what's happening is they are getting you know, grandma and mom and stuff are looking at their wishlist for Christmas and that's what's making the buying happen. So that word of mouth piece is how they're buying, right? So grandma or mom is buying, but the actual recipient is not them. It's somebody else. And so that has a massive impact. So I think that the two biggest factors really are that trust and then who the, who the person is that's receiving it. Um, I think the other place where we see word of mouth being really impactful is for things like, um, some specific category. So baby is a great example of this. Okay. Baby. Like there are a good example. I've got I got a one year old and a three year old We bought a camera for the three year old because of the recommendation of a friend and that we didn't like it. We went back to the same friend and found out they bought a different one that they liked better. And so we bought that one, too. And so like there's a that and that is the reality of a lot of product categories where it's like you're you're looking for people who've experienced the same thing as you. You're asking them for their their recommendation and advice and maybe and sometimes there's a really high AOV products, too. Um, I mean, that's a, I mean, a relatively high OV it's a few hundred dollars each for those cameras. Right. Um, so it's not crazy, but it's, it's high enough that you, you want to know that it's going to be good before you commit to it. And so the word of mouth is really valuable in that context too.

Tim Rowe: It starts to seem like there's right. There's a, there's the use case of marketing for awareness, new reach discovery. People need to know who you are and that you sell your thing. There's marketing for validation really of the decision that's already been made. And then if you think about like the full life cycle marketing, it's just kind of both of those things combined, not to simplify it too much, but it seems like it's, it, I guess marketing could, could, it could be easier. It could be easier than maybe we've let it be.

Jeremiah Prummer: I really like what you said about validating something you're already going to buy or thinking about buying, right? Like that's a that's actually a huge one. And I think if I don't want to say this in a way that I don't mean this to be a negative thing, but I think a lot of times people who are doing the media buying aren't necessarily thinking about their own experience as a consumer. when they're thinking about the buying decisions, right? Like I actually think there's a huge bias towards looking in the dashboards, looking at the data and not thinking about the psychology piece behind it. And to be clear, you don't want your own personal experience to drive everything. That's not what I'm saying, but what I am saying is like, stop and think about what you're selling. Do you actually, you're, you're selling a $300 baby camera to you. Are you going to buy that just because you saw an ad? Probably not. Right. There's probably something else that's going to go into that consideration. So think about that from a more holistic viewpoint and think about, well, where are those other places that I'm going to look? So I'm going to show that out to somebody, but they're probably going to go look for reviews. They're probably going to go see what influencers are saying. Right. And it's basically blogs and mommy blogs and all that kind of stuff. They're probably going to talk to friends. So like, how do you actually create that that like how do you make sure that you're everywhere that they're looking for that validation so anyway i just love that point that you made because i think that's super clear like even if you decide you want something sometimes it takes a lot more than just deciding you want it to actually make that purchase happen

Tim Rowe: And what a clear lens to think about it through as, as, as a marketer, to be able to just step back and say, okay, Jeremiah just described this scenario where he bought an expensive, right? A high AOV thing twice based off of a recommendation from a friend. What was that? What was the experience of the friend? That led to their first purchase that led to the word-of-mouth recommendation. And I think it really does start to get a lot easier. If you distill that, that you've got a good defined ICP, you know, who that, that person is, you know, the market that you want to be in. All right. Let's just sit down and think about their day to day. Jeremiah works from home. He's got two kids under five, right? Like he's, he has a spouse in the household, right? Like what does his day? Oh, he probably does like target pickup orders because he's busy. He runs a company and like, right. Like, and start to put these little pieces, those micro moments into that physical buyer's journey. And now you've got a very tangible marketing strategy. What's your take? You had said something the first time we connected about correlation. The correlation matters. And I admittedly was for a long time somebody who thought, right, correlation does not equal causation and it's black or white, it's zero or one. What's your take on correlation and causation?

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah, um, and to be, yes, I do think correlation matters. And to be clear, I'm not saying that correlation is causation.

Tim Rowe: I do think there's a Don't apply any my crazy talk to Jeremiah.

Jeremiah Prummer: But what I what I think is really interesting. So like what one of the channels I've been diving deep on lately is TV. And I think it's really compelling because TV is one of the oldest forms of medium that we're using at this point for for advertising. And I think it's extremely underutilized, right? Like the, the reality is everybody's switched to, to, uh, meta and Google and even tech talk. Um, tech talks still relatively cheap compared to those other ones. But the reality is the last advertising dollars want to go into a, into a space, uh, the less extensive that ad space is. And so TV is actually depending on the type, it can be really cheap. And so there's a couple of things. And again, going back to that psychology lens, thinking about the person who's watching a TV ad, you're there to be entertained. You're typically not in shopping mode or in browsing mode. You just want to sit down on your couch. You want to relax. You want to watch something, right? So you want to think about that. That's an important factor in this whole process. there is going to be no click. There's no way for you to, to track a click, right? There's a few things you can do with connect TV and trying to see like, you know, did you show this ad to somebody by this IP address? And are they on your website? There's some of that kind of stuff. But the reality is that's all super money too. Cause really like that's actually not very clean. Right.

Tim Rowe: And then really just paying for confidence at that point, you're just paying, paying to feel good about what you're buying.

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah, exactly. Um, so, and then there was one more point I wanted to make about this. Anyway, it doesn't matter too much. Sorry, I derailed. That's my fight against TV. I derailed before. That's all good. But the there's, uh, Oh, sorry. And then the last thing is I actually think TV gives you, it gives your brand more credibility than just throwing up a Facebook ad, right? Like it's actually, there's a bigger barrier to being on TV and especially on having a good TV ad. that I think tells people you're a legitimate brand. You're real. Right. And so that's the I'm thinking about these these things in the context of TV. And so you look at TV and then you go and you you start spending money on TV. So you start at zero. Right. And you start putting ad dollars into TV. We know that that person is not in a click buy now mode. So it's probably going to take some time. So think about that process. Right. Like you'll probably see a little bit of an uptick. But the reality is it might be weeks or months before you actually see the full that full journey. So you start looking at this, you start seeing it show up in your post-purchase surveys, and it's going to start small. So one thing we do is we say, track the trend, right? When you see the trend going up in people saying they're finding you on TV, so this is where the correlation piece comes in, right? You see that happening But then one other thing we see oftentimes when you add a new channel is that the other channels can become more efficient. So something's happening where you're reaching somebody in one place. And yeah, I know, Tim, you and I have talked about this, right? Like out of home is a great example of something that can do this for you, where you put it out there and then for some reason, your meta ads are actually doing better than they were before. And it's because these other channels especially meta and Google are really good at capturing the person who's ready to buy right? So you're kind of priming the pump so to speak when you add in a new channel and you are giving them, you're just introducing more people who could become buyers in other places. And that's not always true. Just to be clear, like, this doesn't work for everybody. You probably need to be at a certain scale for adding channels to actually make sense.

Tim Rowe: But the reality is, don't do this with your $10,000 a month market.

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah, exactly. That's what we're saying. I would say if you're under a million a year, pick a channel, push hard on it. If you're over a million a year, start investigating. Depending on how you're doing, you may not want to look at that. But if you start doing a million a month in revenue, things start to shift and change. And you can put $100,000 into a TV buy and see what happens. So yeah, when I talk about correlation, the other thing I like to track is when you add a new channel, ask if somebody also saw your ad in that new channel. So even if they say they bought from Facebook, did they also see your TikTok ad? Did they also see your TV ad? Did they see your billboard? Whatever it is, because that kind of gives you an idea of like, okay, maybe they didn't discover me from this, but is that actually driving that impact in other channels too? And it does, right? Not always, but it often does.

Tim Rowe: And that's one of those trends you can kind of parse out and say, all right, hey, I started doing TV, I started doing radio, I started doing out of home, and now more people are reporting, hey, I remember seeing your billboard, or I remember hearing your radio ad and starting to weave that in. How long of a, like, what is the time period? That's a question we get all the time, you know, for, for first time advertisers with out of home is how long should I do it? And generally we see like six to eight weeks is where a campaign will start to reach peak efficiency. And the longer you can be up the better that comes with budget restrictions and goals and timing and totally get that. What do you see when starting to introduce some of these other offline channels, like where peak efficiency starts to roll in?

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah. And this is where asking people how long they knew about your brand before purchasing can be really valuable. So if you're asking that of new customers and you find that 80% of your new customers take more than a month. We see that happen sometimes. If that's the case, you're in it for months. You're probably talking three months before you start doing it. You've got to be patient. Yeah, there's a lot of patience required there. On the flip side, if half of your customers say they're buying in a week, well, then maybe it's only four weeks to start to see some impact. Right. So I think that's where I would say, like, definitely be tracking that and specifically looking at it for new customers, because that's that's important. And then looking at your mix, too, right? Like if let's say your brand. Say half of your business is coming from word of mouth. Sometimes that means that those additional channels are actually going to be more impactful, right? Sometimes though, what that can mean is that it's inflating the front end of your buying journey. Um, and so, and you can actually break that down on a platform like ours. Um, so if that's the case, you should know that and kind of filter it onto like paid sources and say, okay, well, if it's a paid acquisition source, sure. Maybe my average is less than a week, but the paid sources are a month. Um, you want to know that kind of info too.

Tim Rowe: incredible insight, incredibly helpful. Jeremiah, I'd love to finish with some some more personal side. Are you a Are you a reader? Do you listen to podcasts? Where do you go for your own education motivation to stay in the know? Where do you like to go?

Jeremiah Prummer: Great question. Um, man, I am not a I I'm not the type who will read every email from an email list I sign up for, listen to every podcast I'm subscribed to. I think it's just a time thing, ultimately. But I would say, I think that where I've been getting the most value and education and stuff lately has been listening to the Nine Operators podcast. I don't know if you've heard of that before. Let me check that out. It's four guys who run nine figure businesses and the things that they talk about, think about, like the way that they're thinking about planning operations, all kinds of things. For me, it's just really helpful to think through the context of like, okay, well, these are the brands we're working with oftentimes. What is it? What are their pain points? What are the things they're struggling with? So from my standpoint, specifically, it's helpful to be listening to that and hearing that and thinking about it. but also just from a standpoint of like these guys know what they're doing from a business side.

Tim Rowe: It's a nine figure operator. So yeah.

Jeremiah Prummer: Um, yeah, that's, that's been, that's probably my go to. Um, and actually one of those guys that has a newsletter, that's probably my number one red newsletter too. And he just talks about like running a business, like what are, what are some gotchas, where some things to look out for all that. So, um, those are my, those are my places right now.

Tim Rowe: Sounds like a great recommendation for this audience as well. We'll make sure to link to it. Get nine operators some additional eyeballs from the Out of Home Insider crew. Jeremiah, if you could put any message on a billboard for the world to see, this question was made for Out of Home Insider, I don't know. I think Tim Ferriss started it. But if you could put any message on a billboard for the world to see, what would it be?

Jeremiah Prummer: You know, I'd probably, I'd wordsmith this a little bit. But, and I would probably, it's not, it's not business. I think one, one thing that's, that is almost universally true is that we all get caught up in the, the comparison game for lack of a better term. Like we, we look at everything around us. We feel like we are not enough. And the answer or the reality is that's true, right? Like none of us are ever the best at whatever we're trying to do. Um, but I think like, know some sort of message around just like it's okay to to do your best just show up do your best and that's enough that's that's kind of that's what i would uh again message that better but but that's something i've just been thinking about a lot in my own life and and really for everybody so

Tim Rowe: It's a great message. We'll give it to the team at Ogilvy. They'll chop it up, make it seven words or less, put it on a billboard. It's going to be great. Jeremiah, where can folks connect with you? We connected on Twitter. Where are you most active? Give them the Latin long. How do they get?

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah. Uh, Twitter is the most active, just Jeremiah, um, uh, Jeremiah Primer, same with LinkedIn. Uh, I'm the only person I know with my name. So that's nice.

Tim Rowe: Makes it easy. I'm the only Tim Rowe that I know. I don't know the guy from T-Row Price, but I continue to claim he's my uncle.

Jeremiah Prummer: Yeah, I love it. And then jeremiah at notecommerce.com if you want to email me. Honestly, my email is just so buried these days. It's probably actually better to message me on social media.

Tim Rowe: There it is. We'll link to all of those things, all those places. Jeremiah, thank you so much for sharing as generously as you have.

Jeremiah Prummer: Thank you, Tim. I appreciate it. It's been really fun chatting with you prior to this and this, and hopefully we can chat a lot more soon.

Tim Rowe: Absolutely. Looking forward to the follow-up to this. If you found it to be helpful, please share it with someone who could benefit. As always, make sure to smash that subscribe button wherever you're listening. Leave the podcast to review. That's how you help us grow. We'll see y'all next time. And we're out. 35 minutes on the dot.