The Shopify Site Speed Scam: How Brands Are Being Duped and Why It Matters For Media Partners with Lukas Tanasiuk, Founder of The Nice Agency

Tim Rowe:
Lucas, I'm excited to have this conversation because as an out of home media community, we talk a lot about offline attention arbitrage and the underpriced, undervalued opportunity for brands to create alchemy in the real world by using these formats, these large high impact billboards and kiosks, things that we come into contact. We talk about these things, especially with e-commerce and born online brands excitedly about the opportunity to drive traffic. to their websites. You've uncovered something that's really kind of like groundbreaking has to do with, I mean, the biggest e-commerce platform in the world and a huge scam that's running rampant throughout the industry that very likely there's brands listening to this right now. There's folks listening to this that work with brands that are going to want to know the information that you have to share today. So thank you for being here.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Yeah, you're very, very welcome. That's that's so true. So it's a great, great introduction. And there's way more than 30 minutes to go into us. I just got off an hour and a half long call where we were talking about one company and one of the hundreds of scams, not hundreds, but, you know, many, many scams that we found in their own unique little ways. So it's going to be very, very high level here. But I want to use as is as little time as possible to create as much impact, positive back for anybody listening to help them to help arm them to catch these things. So I think that the best thing to do is like kind of take a step back to start at the beginning. What the hell? Why is page speed?

Tim Rowe: What the hell? Yeah, what's site? What is site speed? Right? I mean, we just we just got past the point of like, All right. Here's why local advertisers need to have a functioning website before they do a billboard. You can't just have a billboard and point it to your Facebook page, Joe's Pizza, right? You've got to have a website, but this impacts businesses of all shapes and sizes and scale from billion dollar companies running on this platform to the local business and understanding why site speeds is important to the customer experience. So maybe, yeah, double click into that. Give us some insight on site speed.

Lukas Tanasiuk: So, so much. So, and I will say too, this isn't just, I focus on Shopify just because I've been building, I come from, I'm a non-technical founder who's just hired really good developers and is a good BS detector. Can I swear at all? Yeah, yeah, yeah, send it. I'm a really good bullshit detector. So I've just, you know, I've been in sales and working in tech companies since I was a young guy, still young, 33. But I've identified a lot of different things in a lot of different ways and built quite a few businesses on Shopify. And so I know the world of Shopify so well. But these scams run on WordPress. They run on pretty much any editable Any site that can have editable code.

Tim Rowe: So not just exclusive to Shopify, but really any website.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Really any website can be gamed in one way or another. The goal of these scammers, I don't want to give them much more credence than to call them scammers, is to game. If you've ever been to web page speed.web.dev, you might know it as Google page speed insights. That's for sure. Yeah, you just drop your URL in and it gives you like a quick number, performance number and all that right. The You know, and it's like you said, like Lucas is exposing this. This stuff's been out for a while, but it's so, so not well known that I may as well be. You know what I mean? Like there's a couple articles on it. I had to dig back to like 2014, 2015 to find some podcasts and like a couple here and there, a couple of Reddit posts, but it's so quiet compared to the damage it does for brands that get caught by this stuff. So, The goal of these scammers, in one way or another, is to edit your code in a way that when Lighthouse, which is the test that's being run, built by Google on the pagespeed.web.dev URL, and it's kind of the industry standard for page speed testing, because it's Google. When they run that, they have a specific, this is like an identifier, it's called a user agent in the code. the site as they build it in they can have a if this then that like as code works right where if the user agent equals chrome lighthouse google's lighthouse speed test which means it's the speed test testing the site right now let's serve it a completely stripped down barren version of the website so that the numbers are really really high so then they can go to the people that they're scamming on fiverr upwork and even on you know multi $1,000 a month agencies, all of the plugin tools on Shopify that promise to just automate all of them in one way or another, with almost no exceptions are installing some form or another of these malicious scripts that using the variety of scammy ways they can are tricking that lighthouse test, the page speed web dev test. into believing that your number is way higher than it is. So they say, Oh, we can get you a 95 performance score on mobile for your your in and only cost you 200 bucks or 2000 bucks, whatever they want to scam you for. And, and I don't know if you know, but your video is gone, Tim. Nice. Okay, yeah.

Tim Rowe: Oh, good. Am I back? Sorry. Yeah, it's something you and you ended it perfectly. I can snip this right now. I heard everything that you said and I was having like, I muted to cough. Because I want to cough in your ear. And then like I screwed everything up. Okay, no, that was perfect. Continue. Yeah.

Lukas Tanasiuk: So the You would and I did before I started this agency. I've been scammed by this multiple times, which made it even closer to home to me. When I identified and learned about what was actually going on, you'd realize there was almost no genuine site speed optimization agencies because you think about it from a perspective. You hear some respected people like Davey Fogarty, the founder of the Udi, if you know that, the big long sweater hoodie that made it's like a big, you know, famous e-com success story, a billion dollar company. He made a video a couple of months or weeks ago being like, hey, you want to increase your conversion rate by 10 to 50% on your store, this is what you do. You go to Fiverr.com, you search speed optimization, you pay one of these people 100 bucks, they'll make your site way faster. Everybody who followed that advice, every single person who followed that advice now has these cloaking scripts on their sites, and Google knows about it. And this is the implication that Google knows about these and just in typical Google fashion, they don't give you notice that, hey, by the way, you have some malicious script on your site, because they figure, you know, they just shadow ban you, you're sure they assume you're trying to game the system, which you are, but you don't know it as if you don't know it, someone else's gaming it on your behalf. on your behalf, you think you just got your, you know, site speed, because now the performance score is 92. Because they're getting served a tiny little version of your site with none of the actual JavaScript or code being loaded and rendered to the lighthouse test, when in reality, a customer actually goes to load the site. And it's even slower than it was before, because it has to load all the cloaking scripts and your full site. So it's even slower, your SEO drops off a fricking cliff, you risk literally getting delisted off Google if they catch you enough times and there's enough infringements. You don't win anything and you got fleeced for a couple hundred at best and it works.

Tim Rowe: And your site doesn't actually work any better. No, it works worse. It works worse. So let me let me zoom out and I'll add a little bit of a real world. No, this is great. Like I'll add a little bit of a real world, but I'll add a little bit of a real world context to this as you're saying it. What it made me think of is It's like, it's like you have a small business and you hire someone to come secret shop your business. But the problem is every time that secret shopper comes, your team knows who the secret shopper is. So they give them a different experience, a fraudulent experience that doesn't actually reflect the true nature of your business. That's that's essentially what's going on.

Lukas Tanasiuk: But Google's the customer here and all the garbage. They fix the garbage that was hanging out. They they put a picture over the hole in the wall. They they wrap up the leak and put some curtains behind the damaged shit in the back and everything.

Tim Rowe: We've all seen that business before. We've all walked in and been like, this feels like there's something not right here. It doesn't quite add up. It's a great analogy.

Lukas Tanasiuk: I'm going to use that forever now. Thank you.

Tim Rowe: Please, yeah, please, please do use that. I think that this is it's really important because, you know, when we think about again, back to what we talked about in the open there, We are, the thing we want to hang our hat on is the ability to drive traffic to a site, whether that, right. We talk about bricks or clicks. It's either your, your physical storefront or your virtual storefront. And now for a lot of companies, it's really both. Right. There's some sort of physical retail presence and online presence and all of those things have to be integrated. how I experienced your website for the first time, it could determine whether or not they do business with you ever. And you shared some study from Deloitte, I believe it was milliseconds make millions. What's the data actually say about a site that functions, one, primarily works, but two, is fast? What does it say about that?

Lukas Tanasiuk: Yeah, I'll really quickly before I share my screen and go into that, I'll step back and say, like, before we started recording, I was giving the example of, you know, billboards are, of course, huge in your community. And say you've got this is like a real world situation here for somebody, they're sitting in traffic, they see a great billboard that you have. They're used to online, they pull over safely and they use their mobile phone to load up your website. They Google your name, your site comes up, your SEO is great, fantastic. They go from that offline experience, they're gonna transition probably on mobile as data would show to your site. your literal first interaction with that new net new visitor most likely is how fast that site is loading and how quick that performance is. And now we need to remember in context to this specific situation, they're coming from a more legacy format into the modern whatever, right? So if they see like that's a plumbing company or it's a whatever, a law firm and the site loads super, super slow, I can see from my perspective being, you know, a bit more Jen, whatever I am. I think I'm like millennial. It doesn't matter. But, you know, younger having the site load up. It makes me a boomer, whatever. I'm not a boomer. Thirty three, whatever that makes.

Tim Rowe: I'm a boomer compared to you. I'm a millennial, which I don't understand. I'm like I had cassette tapes.

Lukas Tanasiuk: I know. Millennials is like eighty two. What's crazy, ridiculous, but they go from the billboard to your site, and it takes 5678 910, sometimes 1520 seconds to load on like a fast 3g, even a throttled 4g connection, which is like the common connection for most cities in America. If it takes that long to load, I'm thinking personally, and I'm sure a lot of other people will that go to your site. Ah, you know, they're coming from a billboard. They're old school. They're not quite online ready. So they're not cool. In my mind. I'm going to go get this brandy company. Like the site doesn't even work. And, and sure. Right. So a fast site is, is literally your first, you know, it's like being late to the first meeting on a date or at a very important meeting. Like you show up on time to a fast show up early, you know, and then you're going to make the best impression. And of course, It's not just how does that first page load, but when I click on the shop collection or look at pricing, how quick does it bring me to that page? If I make a mistake and I go back, if I add something to cart, how quick do all of these interactions take? All of those things. Now, with that context set to and specificity to your client base or your listenership rather, I'll share this. Yeah, pull this up.

Tim Rowe: While you're doing that, to kind of continue to build on that Google as your secret shopper, that's like a customer walks into your store and you're so excited because that was the job of the advertising to put customers in your store and no one greets them. No one is there to say, hey, welcome to our store. Can I help you find something that you're looking for? Would you like to? How easy can I make your physical experience? That's I think that's that's the analog that I invite the audience to keep in mind.

Lukas Tanasiuk: It's like imagine in this situation, they can't even get in yet, right? Because the site's not loading. So it's like, oh, it's locked. A buzz for entry kind of thing. Right. And they're going to buy your nice wares and you're standing at the door and the employees aren't paying attention. You see them, right? You know, it's loading. You see them. But you're pulling on the door, and you can't get in for 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 seconds. You're sitting there kind of annoyed, like knocking. What the hell is going on? Why are you ignoring me? Don't you want my money? I actually, this will be a touch home to a lot of your… a lot of your listeners as well. My business before this, who I'm still the co-founder of and equity partner in, is called EVs.com. We sell all sorts of personal electric vehicles. We're one of the biggest private retailers of e-scooters, electric unicycles, e-skateboards, one wheels in North America. We're really big in that area, but we're click and mortar. We have two two physical locations, but we drive a lot of traffic from Google ads, from our ads to our store because our store is very expensive. I'm in Vancouver, Canada, but we're also in a senior part, the kind of, you know, right off the like skid row of Vancouver. If you've ever heard of East Hastings street, we're one block away from East Hastings street in Chinatown, right in the thick of it. So our door is literally locked because people would run out with our stuff. Sure, we get robbed all the time. We got robbed multiple times and our windows smashed. And so we had to have a lot of security precautions. One of them was locking the door. And there was many instances where a person would come in to buy something, they pull on the door, they'd see a sign that why would they expect to see us as please knock for entry. And if our team wasn't paying attention, they'd be waiting 20-30 seconds, or they'd call us and people were in the back. So annoyed it almost never purchased from us. It's like a real world close to home for me situation of exactly What people are experiencing online so I had to mention that to most know it's so I think it's it's so relative to Just how we do business today, right?

Tim Rowe: It's it is It is less scalable to have a physical footprint, right? Brands are more thoughtful about how they develop those and curate those footprints, but your digital footprint, it's everywhere. And when you're using, when you're using a format like out of home, where again, you know, we talk about it driving traffic, but the other thing it does that's more, you know, kind of quantitative is it builds trust and grassroots credibility. Instantly. So I see your billboard and I think you're someone trustworthy, incredible. And then I, and then I get to where I'm going and I open up my phone and I go to your website and it doesn't load. Congratulations. You just wasted a bunch of money on advertising.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Amen. And just to riff, Gowen, you're back there and riff the importance of offline, just from a marketer to marketer. Yeah, please. To me, one of the biggest things and one of the biggest levers you can pull as a marketer in almost any single industry I can possibly think of is the word ubiquity, right? So if I'm on Google ads, Facebook ads, we have a TikTok, we get someone, we do YouTube videos and we also have print and it's on the side of a bus and it's on a billboard and it's at the train while I'm waiting for it in the metro. It's another person. They go, they see the site everywhere. And then they're like, oh, wait, I've seen this brand everywhere. They must be huge. And that builds trust in itself. And it reintegrates you with your buying public. So I love the idea of offline because it increases that reach of ubiquity far beyond the reaches of the internet. And people are spending most of their time on the internet. But when they look up, If you're doing it right and you're spending enough money on offline in your rights, you know, cities that you're, you're focusing on, they're going to see you there too. So it's just, you're everywhere. You, you become the everywhere for them. You're the, you're the, you're the Kleenex of whatever industry you're in pretty quickly, especially if you're quite niche, you know?

Tim Rowe: And that's a hard thing to do. That's a really, really hard thing to do.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Ubiquity is key in my opinion, but that's as an aside. You see my screen?

Tim Rowe: Yeah. Great tangent. We see the screen, break it down. What do we got here?

Lukas Tanasiuk: Okay. So Deloitte, if you don't know, Deloitte is a very large company that does a bunch of enterprise level services, but they also do case studies. I want to say that to my knowledge, I don't even think Deloitte offers page speed optimization, site speed optimization as a service, which I think is great because they don't so much have a horse in the race here. I might be wrong, but I've never been marketed or seen and I know Deloitte pretty well. But they did this 51 page report on the importance of site speed, particularly in mobile, but they did it across a variety of different markets. They checked millions of different sites and interviewed and surveyed thousands and thousands, I think hundreds of thousands of different people and referenced, you know, things like unbalanced speed impact report. This is just one of the many reports, I think. It's pretty comprehensive, yeah. Extremely comprehensive. But some of the most compelling stuff is like this. A page load time goes from one to three seconds. The probability of a bounce increases by 32%. This is gonna be really important. Remember this one.

Tim Rowe: And the bounce is someone that gets to a page and leaves before getting to a second page. So they walked into your store. No one was there to greet them.

Lukas Tanasiuk: They left out the door. Got it. So as you see, as you would probably expect, right, as that time that the delta between one to X seconds increases, the probability of a bounce rate increases literally exponentially. Wow.

Tim Rowe: So from if we wait, if we make them wait three seconds right now, 32%, so three out of every 10 people that walk in or are leaving, if that time goes to 50%, Or to five seconds rather. So, so, you know, what is that? Yeah. About 50, 60%. The bounce rate goes to 90%. So nine, if you, if you make them wait five seconds, nine out of every 10 customers are leaving, which means you, you got 10 there. You've only got one to work with. If it goes to six seconds, 106% and 10 seconds, 123%. That's a. I mean, the six and 10 seconds, that's now it's costing you money to bring customers in.

Lukas Tanasiuk: That's it. And I will say, I will say, because this is very important, a lot of people knowing that very, you know, tenured skilled operators are going to be like, I don't know about that. There's so much nuance in this in the sense that if you have high and much higher intent purchasers, those numbers are going to drop. Right. A lot of this will be like people. It's Deloitte. It's going to be people going to like Walmart dot com, Zara dot com, right, where they're just They clicked off an ad, or they're checking something out really quick in the midst of checking out 20 different links. If you run a bespoke watch company, or suit company, or a private jet company, or one of the best, most trusted trades of any type, the intent to go, their need to visit your site is going to be higher. And there may be older folks who are used to slower sites from the dial-up days. I think, you know, a lot of these people aren't factored into here. So I'm going to kind of like attack myself here and say this data is, is really compelling, but will be less for a lot of situations. But regardless, the longer they wait across any research you find for any industry, they're going to bounce as they wait longer and longer. And that's only as people, you know, uh, tech increases and sites get faster and faster and online experiences become snappier and snappier. these numbers are only going to increase and they will get to the point that even those higher intense searches are hitting numbers like this as well. So I just wanted to kind of like defend the other side.

Tim Rowe: It's absolutely fair and welcome to be objective and I appreciate that. And I'll just kind of tie off with the question that a former guest asked relative to this conversation in the physical setting. How long are you willing to wait at a restaurant before getting served before you leave? Yeah. So we'll just leave with that rhetorical question and then think about that relative to those other experiences, something that is higher intent, something that I'm going to take a long raise, a longer sales cycle. I'm going to spend more time researching it. I probably have a higher tolerance to. A slower, slower load time, because I know that the value of the thing on the other side of it is going to help me in this high expenditure kind of decision that I'm making. But for the majority of like. retail and e-commerce brands and people who are just trying to sell things, it could be a pretty huge impact.

Lukas Tanasiuk: As those numbers show, and those are the people that it's speaking to, right? I've had so many different operators who I'm selling to, and I'm not cheap. My services aren't cheap, you know, by most definitions.

Tim Rowe: That's $100 on Fiverr option.

Lukas Tanasiuk: We'll get into it really quickly here, but I don't want to tangent on this too much, but people very often say, listen, I don't remember the last time I left a site because it was too slow. I never do it. It's like, yeah, but you may have not. And I honestly also haven't really much either. I'm pretty patient with sites and I understand how long these things can take. and I wanna probably support the business. I'm a more high intent, I'm a busy person. If I'm checking something to buy, most likely my intent is already higher than most people. But you think about how many people are just, they're in the midst of a six hour TikTok or Instagram or Facebook or Snapchat search, they get fed your ad or they see your billboard. And they're just on their phone, hopefully at a stop. Safely, safely, not in motion. Yeah, but they're busy. They're in the middle of their day. They don't want to forget about it. So they load up your page. And as they're waiting, looking, you know, safely at the traffic, I don't want to condone anything. The page isn't loading. I got too much shit to do. And they put their phone away and you maybe never get back to them again. Touches everything. So in really any context, it's important. So this is going to retail, lead gen, travel and luxury. This is what they tested.

Tim Rowe: Um, retail, mostly, mostly retail and, and a lot of luxury. So that, that higher intent is, is kind of baked into this.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Yeah. Right. So retail, this is, and this is where I'll kind of end on the importance of, so remember that one to three seconds, um, whatever, one to three seconds was 30% of customers are going to leave. Let's call it 30. So they did, uh, 20.5 million user sessions and they based it off of an improvement of 0.1 seconds of the four speed metrics. The four speed metrics were all the basic kind of, you know, largest contentful paint. How quick does the main asset load? And that doesn't just remember 0.1 seconds. So it was like blinking your eyes. Like it's that fast. So, improving site speed, observed positive change and progression through the purchase funnel. As I was saying, not only how quick does the page load, but how quick do you load to the collections page? How quick does collections zero in on a product? How quick does that product add to cart? How quick do you go from cart to checkout? How quick does that checkout process? Does the checkout break as very often happens with slow sites? But check this out. User interactions were measured to increase by 8.4% when there was a 0.1 second improvement in the force metrics. Average order value increased by 9.2%.

Tim Rowe: So they spent more money and spent more money more often.

Lukas Tanasiuk: we're up for 100 milliseconds for point one seconds. Again, same point as before these is this is almost certainly more enterprise data. They don't dive into who all the clients are. But Even if it's 10% of this, at a business doing six figures monthly, that's hundreds of thousands of dollars a year you're leaving on the table for a hundred. And I've never had a client where we increased their site speed by 0.1 seconds. It's always in the multiple seconds of improvements. So this is like orders of magnitude type of impact. And of course, it's not scaled, right? It doesn't mean that 0.2 equals 16.8. But it's still, it's more. It's more.

Tim Rowe: Right. You would want your staff to greet your customers and get them to a purchase decision faster in your brick and mortar store. You would want the same thing for, for the. Online experience as well. So how did you, how did you discover that there was a scam going on? I mean, that's scams a pretty big word and I have opinions on some scams too. Um, but how did you figure this out?

Lukas Tanasiuk: Like where did, how the hell did you stumble into this again, again, to the bullshit detector side? Um, I was looking at it from an operator's perspective and I. went to is I've been scammed by this multiple times. I've been building stores on Shopify since 2016.

Tim Rowe: Real quick, just so I can rip clips from a content set. Yeah, I was going to just say, if you have anything else to share, can we go back full screen? Because then I'll get great video.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Perfect. OK, I'll stop for now. Gotcha. OK.

Tim Rowe: So going back to 2015?

Lukas Tanasiuk: Yeah, so I've been building sites on Shopify myself, scaling them since 2015, all the way up to the scale of Evie's, which was, you know, It's multi six figures a month and higher than peak season from low to high. And I had paid to have my pages optimized before because I was told on forums and everything just the common knowledge is I just go to Fiverr and get someone to optimize for it. They'll get your performance score in the 90s. I'm not a developer. So I'm thinking, Oh, it's Google. Why would the number mean anything other than better? Right? So if they sure Fiverr and you'll see these companies on Fiverr and as well, the one I'm going to show slash out. which isn't even fiber. I picked them because they're even deadlier, because they charge five times as much as a fiber developer charge, and they're doing the same bullshit. And so they're charging $500 to $1,500 for a site speed optimization, and they're just doing what I'll show you. And I'll show you how to kind of spot these things as well. But I looked at this, and I'm like, just think about it from first principles, just logic, just basic street smarts. What's the age old trope, right? If it sounds too good to be true, it is. So we just looked at that data. I'm going to pay somebody from Kolkata, $100. No shade to Kolkata, whatever. Someone overseas, $100. And they're going to increase my site speed to a point that I'm going to increase my average order value and conversion rate by double digit percentages for $100? For $100? Or for $1,000, for $10,000? Like, promised? How does that make any sense? It's the best deal I've ever had in my life. I'm paying my performance marketing agency you know, 20 grand a month to do this. And they're hitting those numbers consistently. And it's nightmare after nightmare with them. Why doesn't everybody do this? Why isn't this the biggest thing in the world? I'm going to shout it from the rooftops. So they go, they pay for it. They install this scammy script. They say, hey, we did it the next day. Your site speed is 92, 98, 99. Congratulations. And they think, you're happy. They leave another one of the 500 plus five star reviews that that scammer has on their site because they're none the wiser. all the while, all they did, like I said, at the very start is just they just copy pasted a variety of different sneaky scripts, they put it into your site's code on the back end. And it just says when the site speed test visit my site, Like you said, we fix all the dressings, we put the big veneer up, we cover the back room that has the fires going on and the leaky faucets, we cover it all up, it looks great. But to add on that analogy, they know the secret shoppers know about it, but they don't tell you they know about it. They say, Oh, wow, super fast. Here's your good score, buddy. And then they leave and they tell their, you know, network, they're running a scam. They're not actually fast. And, and

Tim Rowe: And delisting you, right? And all of their friends are just completely avoiding you now.

Lukas Tanasiuk: So how to spot these? I'll just I'll just say right away, number one red flag. if you have on WordPress, it's possible. So if you have a WordPress site and somebody says we can get, especially if you play with them and allow them to take off apps and, and you know, be very consultative, you can get WordPress sites to very high performance scores on Google. But Google's page speed, the lighthouse test is not built in any way to reflect Shopify, which has third party apps galore, right? Your review app, your banner app, your, They have Hotjar for tracking customer interaction, heat mapping. They all load additional scripts that can't be optimized because they're third-party scripts and Shopify doesn't allow that stuff. That all has to load separately. And every one you add, every image you add, if you don't have it perfectly formatted and even still, every single thing you add, chunks into your speed and makes it slower and slower and slower. So an actual realistic good score on Shopify for a mobile store is like could be as low as 35 4045 if you have enough apps in so don't just completely disconnect from the idea of a performance score meaning performance specifically if you have a Shopify store, focus on actual timing, which which we do and there's a lot of complexity behind that. But the red flag I was mentioning if anybody I don't care if they're a $50,000 a month revolutionary AI powered technology software, which is the actual company that I'm not naming yet, but we're about to Oh, it just gets on. all the way down to $100 a month Fiber, $100 one time Fiber Dev, any one of them, any one of them that says we can get your Shopify mobile performance score or desktop performance score to 90 plus within a couple days without even looking at your site, you are being scammed. They are running the cloaking script in one way or another, nothing that's going to happen to your site, you're going to get scammed. bad news bears run away and you're getting flagged by Google, your SEO drops off a cliff, you're risking getting delisted. Your customers actually have a slower site now because they have to load that malicious cloaking script on top of all the script that was already there. So nobody wins except for the person scamming you. And this is why I created the nice agency was to destroy this entire ridiculousness that's going on in so many different ways and, and help business owners like myself and my friends and everybody else. get the work done correctly so they can actually benefit from this crazy data that shows how much a really properly fast site increases your conversion rates and just destroy this entire ridiculousness.

Tim Rowe: I'm excited to open it up. Let me ask you a question for my own edification really. they know what they're doing is fraudulent. There's no way that they can interpret, oh, well, I thought that I was doing a good job. I've just been doing it wrong. They also know that what they're doing is a scam.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Again, to steel man, no matter how passionate I am about something, I'll always try and steel man it. Even in that situation, there could still be, say like, you know, some buddies overseas are running the scam and they just tell their buddy like, oh, you need to make some money quick here. Sure. We'll get you create a Fiverr account. It doesn't hurt anybody. They think they get a faster site. And I've talked to these scammers, you know, hire developers all the time as our company continues to grow. And of course, the first thing I do literally when I'm hiring even the expensive guys from overseas, five to seven out of 10 of them will still be like, oh, here's some examples of the customers. We did cloaking script, cloaking script, scam, scam, scam. We can get you 90 plus for all your customers and we'll only charge you $500, sir.

Tim Rowe: Fuck you. So they're really taking advantage of folks who don't have a technical expertise that the price is so low. I'm not going to spend a ton of time investigating it because I didn't make a $10,000 investment. It was a hundred bucks on Fiverr. The report says it's good. Cool. I'm good.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Must be good. And then the site never gets faster. Their SEO starts to drop if they're tracking it and they think, ah, I guess I knew site speed wasn't going to matter. I didn't care about it, which means, you know, it must not matter. And so then, and then it's just another person that just is none the wiser and just think site speed just isn't important because, you know, for their special situation, which is just almost always not true.

Tim Rowe: And then we have to go raise more money to subsidize the growth that we're not experiencing because when they have to wait 10 seconds, it's a net negative to my bottom line because it's now costing me money to put customers on the site because I'm so inefficient. I need extra customers to make up for the inefficiencies. But if I just got everything buttoned up. and organized and got that stuff off of there. Show us the scam. Show us the scam. What does it look like?

Lukas Tanasiuk: How do people identify it? Going pretty long here. So one, the identifier, just right away to identify, big red flag. Anybody, anybody, any situation, remember that. Sear that into your brain. Shopify store, we can get your score into the 80s, 90s, even 70s in most situations on mobile. Watch out. Watch out. Message me. Red flag number one. is for the KL UK s at the nice agency.com or follow me on or add me on Twitter and ask me I'll happily for free just the scam check them and then out that company and make sure to link to the socials in the email, you'll be able to get in touch with Lucas real simply. Trust no one with site speed optimization. I hope you can trust us. I'm doing my absolute best to be one of the only trustworthy people in this industry. Because you went through it.

Tim Rowe: You experienced it as a customer, as someone who is running a successful e-commerce business. You got scammed. Multiple times. Right, multiple ones. And then probably helping friends also do the same, who are also getting scammed. You're as in the trenches as you could possibly be on the subject matter.

Lukas Tanasiuk: I'm in my business now, which is because I've been making it my thing to kind of out these people. And it's all on my inbound. It's just been people being like, hey, I saw the newest video you shared about that SV, like the largest contentful paint scam. I share these scams on my Twitter and LinkedIn, by the way. So fun. So you can see it better. But I'll show you the one right now. But people are just coming to me and say, hey, can you check and see? And I say, yeah, it's there. And they say, OK, can you fix it and optimize my store correctly? So it's great for me from a business perspective, but it's just pure symbiosis. We both win. You get this stuff off your site, you repair your relationship with Google, you actually fast site that converts faster. It's all the data. Let's get into it. So this is just my victim.

Tim Rowe: This is w3speedup.com for anyone that's listening and wants to check this out.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Yes, www.number3speedup.com. They are a dime a dozen. They're just one of the many I found. I picked them, and I picked them for my main case study on this that's pinned on my X page, Twitter page, whatever, Twitter forever. Twitter forever. Twitter forever. But I picked them because they are really sneaky with it. They would have fooled me. up until quite recently. They're really good. So it's got all the right things, right? It says all the data, which is true data, 7% loss in conversions from a one second delay, 11% future pair fee, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is why it's important. We promise. This is another thing we promise to get your load time under this speed for a low price. You know, it'll be done within two to three days, guys, this is an intense borderline forensic development work in some situations like to really dive into stuff, especially for undoing some of the scams to find them to pick through them. Even in a normal situation, this stuff takes my my team seven to 14 days, and sometimes more 10 2030 40 hours to do these optimizations properly. So anybody who says, Oh, it'll get done tomorrow or a day or two, and you'll see results right away again, Huge red flag. So they're promising these big numbers. They're promising super fast turnaround, super quick loading times. And then I already have this loaded. You go to their customer reviews. This is why they're so sneaky. Look at this. I already want this for my own site. It's super clean. It's really a great website. You can pick whatever type of platform you're on for the reviews relative to those clients. And then it has quotes, shows the URL, what platform they're on, the name of the person leaving the review, a snippet from the review, and then a link to check out the live speed and a number showing the live speed.

Tim Rowe: Those are real companies. Those are people who actually paid the money.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Yes, so I was checking out this company, and now I knew at this point, just pre-starting this company, that these numbers are not possible. So I already knew, red flag hit. This is definitely a scam. Now it's just like, OK, find out how. This is the big juicy bit here. So check this out. You load it. This is the same button you would click if you click to view live speed.

Tim Rowe: So we're now going from the W3 site to a PageSpeed site. Is this Google's PageSpeed?

Lukas Tanasiuk: So it's pagespeed.web.dev. If you search Google speed test, it'll bring you to the same site. And I'm on desktop, so we're on desktop, but you'll see 84 performance score and a 98 desktop performance score.

Tim Rowe: Screaming on desktop.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Screaming, unbelievably fast, right? What a deal. Look at the load. So what this shows you here is the final loading pane. So this is what your fully loaded site looks like according to Lighthouse as they're tracking your site. And it looks like just a picture with a logo on it. It's just a picture with a logo on it. And then it shows down here how that went throughout the entire, I think it's like every fraction of X percent of the loading process all the way up until the fully loaded page. This is what it shows.

Tim Rowe: What should it be showing? I'm guessing the actual website progressively loading with the links and the copy and the click here and all the things. But this, I mean, what they have in there is like a picture you could share to your Instagram. Like, it's just an image, not a website.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Right, there's none of this navigational text. There's no h1. There's no subheader. There's no button. There's no user profile. There's no cart. There's none of this below the fold stuff showing all the other customer stuff. There's there's nothing right if we it all lighthouse is trying to do is give a realistic experience of what the actual user sees. So you should see what you see as a customer, right? Like if I go to Let's see, I don't want to pick a headless site, but if I go to a company I know isn't using anything sketchy, like I'm sure if we go like Ford.com. Failing their core web vitals.

Tim Rowe: Come on, Ford, get it together.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Go to the nice agency here. OK.

Tim Rowe: We just clip this out. We'll tag at Ford on all the socials.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Right. So. As this loads, it takes a couple of seconds.

Tim Rowe: And Lucas, while that's coming up, I mean, you did that pretty simply. You went from the scammer's website to the client's lives page speed insights and just scrolled down like the client could do that to the brand could do that. Yep. And see it and just see the scam. Like we could link to it in the, we, you know what we will, we'll link to this. So anyone, anyone listening can see the scam for themselves, because this is everything you just did went from the website to the page speed insights, live look, you scroll down. And you could see that that is clearly not a website that's being rendered by Google. Those are just basic pictures that are to point scamming the system.

Lukas Tanasiuk: This is it. See, this is a real one. See how when I remember, I stupidly took over the page, but it went like zero and then it was just like, boom, full image. And then it was just the same thing over and over. This is how a real site loads. It's nothing, nothing, nothing.

SPEAKER_00: A little bit. Oh, this new asset loaded. Okay. This heavy video loaded. Okay. All the header stuff came in here, popped up and it still looks kind of messed up, right?

Lukas Tanasiuk: Like it's not even getting full support, but it's, it's an actual site loading. It's a real site. it's a real site loading and taking its time to and there are I will say there are some very, very particular ways in which you can defer some specific parts of script from lighthouse because it messes with analytics. And so there's there's like, there might be like a weird little weird thing looking on in a site. But and this is the sneaky part is sometimes the scam is evolving to the point that they'll even put an overlay of an image onto your site. So they will, uh, I just made a post about it a couple of days ago, which maybe we can link to that too, but it's called, I call it the large, uh, largest contentful scam, but the LCP is your largest contentful paint. It's the biggest asset that needs to load on any given page. And it's normally what takes the most time in that case in the Ford's, it would have been the huge video that loads. Uh, So what they're doing is they're uploading a transparent image with 99% border. So just under the full size of the border. So it's this huge image that goes over the entire page and they make it 9,999 pixels by 9,999 pixels. So it's undoubtedly the largest image on the site. that it's hyper, hyper, hyper, hyper, hyper compressed down to nothing. And it's transparent. So you don't even see lighthouse picks it as the largest image loads it immediately. It's right at the top. And it gives you an LCP load time of point four seconds and gives you a crazy score because lcp in itself largest contentful paint that big image is 25 of the entire performance score so they combine that with a couple other things and it looks like a totally normal site so there's some more advanced ways you can check but the number one thing is if you see those high numbers or you hear anyone promise those high numbers or at any point you've ever paid any of these people i mentioned any amount of money to go into your site, that script is almost certainly still there. If you haven't completely redone the site, reach out to me and we'll check it. We'll run the scripts. And if you want to work together, we'll completely undo the damage and get you in the good graces with Google again and write the wrong and make things good again. Wow.

Tim Rowe: So we're going to definitely link to the page speed test, because I think it's important for anyone listening who's a marketer at a brand, who's a founder of a brand, who runs any sort of digital presence. You need to go check all of the sites, see which ones are being potentially impacted by this. It's a test you can do in two minutes.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Literally.

Tim Rowe: It's almost inexcusable to not do it.

Lukas Tanasiuk: And once you see it, you cannot see it, right? And once you know it, you can't unknow it too. People listening to this, for your point about marketers, I've spoken with heads of, of course naming no names, heads of $10, $20, $30 million a month in client ad spend size marketing agencies that have reached out to me being like, Hey, dude, I think our site speed guy that we hire has all of our clients check out their sites. And he's like, I and sites I found yesterday I found five. Hmm. well-known multi would know him if you set them you'd know him if I said I'm for sure ubiquitous brands if you will that have one version or another of these scams and I'm actually working with an unbelievably talented developer who is working with me to uncover the biggest scammer in this entire industry we're literally gonna like implode a 20 million dollar company most likely rightfully so they deserve it Yeah, exactly. But we're going to create a, if you follow me and keep track, we're going to create a URL where you can just plug in and we'll give you a percentage chance of the fact that you have any of these malicious scripts. We're currently training a GPT and AI to test all the different types and we're feeding different types of these scripts because there's so many. Think about how smart coders are, right? There's a hundred different ways you can trick these tests. So it's just, don't focus on the test. If those numbers are super high, run away. If you think it's ever happened to you or anybody you know, reach out to me right away and we'll find out and we'll, you know, do the work to right the wrongs. But even if it hasn't, don't be scared. A fast site is super important. Let's get your site fast and get it done the right way. And we also do speed maintenance too. Because anytime you add any assets, right? Like if you're on, no matter what platform you're on, we focus on Shopify, but The second you add even text, images, videos, any new app, any new asset to your site, your sites that tax it back on shit starts getting slow again, move anything around. it can completely affect all of the performance stuff that was done. So we do kind of an upfront optimization, which is the brunt of the cost. And then we do monthly retainer based on size to keep your site fast. So you just, it's like set it and forget it. You have continual seven day a week contact with us to just ask any questions. We bounce ideas like, hey, I'm thinking about adding this new app. Cool, this is why we wouldn't, this is why we would, here's a good example. Or in sometimes, Don't even worry about that. We can just hard code that into your site. Maybe there's another way to do it. It's always another thing.

Tim Rowe: It's always another way. And you would make those investments in your physical store, right? Each new product launch that I bring out, I'm going to train the staff on how to talk about it and how to compare this product. You would make these investments in your physical brick and mortar store. Also, by the way, you came up with something earlier that I wrote down and we're going to brand we're going to brand a whole category around this. It was a Freudian slip for you, but I love it. Click and mortar. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00: Is that intentional?

Tim Rowe: Intentional. Oh, dude, because then you you. All right. That was so clean. I don't know if that's a thing. Is that a thing or did you just make that a thing?

Lukas Tanasiuk: I don't think I can take, I've, I think I heard about it online. I can't quite remember.

Tim Rowe: I never heard it, so I'm giving you credit for it. I absolutely love that one. Click and mortar. We're going to roll with that one. How can, how can folks listening, how can we, particularly the media sellers, right? We've got a lot of publishers, offline media publishers. This isn't necessarily like the primary focus of our typical interaction with a brand or with a marketer. But how can we be good partners to one, maybe not expose the scam that they're being subjected to, but just to make sure like, hey, before you spend a bunch of money on all this advertising, let's make sure that we've got these things in place. How would you give us some advice? How can we be better partners?

Lukas Tanasiuk: Yeah, be a good, when it comes to anything, even before I started this, once I caught onto this, every single site I ever landed on at that point, I would always just go check it on a PageSpeed Insights report and just check and see. And if the numbers were super high, if it was like mobile, 75, 80 plus desktop in the nineties, immediately, even if I don't see anything on that loading pane, I'm like, oh crap, they have something going on here. So it's really just, arm to provide as much value as possible arm yourself with that awareness that those super high numbers on Shopify in particular Shopify sites just 9.9 times out of 10 with very rare situations, the only time we can get numbers like that I'm talking about an untouched site where you give it an unbelievably talented and unbelievably expensive development agency full reign to delete any and all apps that they deem necessary for speed and then they completely completely rebuild your site from the ground up at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars, in my own experience from building our last company, from the ground up, with speed as the number one focus, and you are not allowed to touch or add a single app or asset without their express permission. Completely hands off. It's the only situation for a Shopify store that you can get numbers anywhere near 90. Anything else, you're being scammed.

Tim Rowe: Where should it be? If things are above board, where should it be?

Lukas Tanasiuk: Honestly, it so doesn't matter. And this is anytime I have like cold inbound traffic. The first conversation I have with anybody is forget about the performance number, specifically if you're on Shopify, forget about it. It should only be used by developers to just say, okay, well, we were at 32. We did a bunch of work. And it's also important to note it's measured as, I'm not sure my screen again, but if you look right below the report, it says measured over a 28 day period. So you'll see the number go up a little bit, but you won't get a full picture of what the actual performance SEO accessibility scores are for the next whatever. Maybe you're 14 days into that 28 day period. You're going to wait a month and a half for that freaking period to give you the actual. So it's people are kind of impatient. They want to see the number go way up crazy. You're going to get an actual kind of balanced view of that number over a long period of time. But don't even worry about it. It's all about just how fast is the actual perceived speed? And then like I said, benchmarking tests in real world situations. So having really the answer, and I don't mean this to sound because it could be us, it could be one of the other kind of few trusted sites, as we've learned, there's not many of them. Many and there are a couple right like if you don't like me or my voice or whatever you want to go pick somebody else or you want to just hire a developer who's really crafty and knows this stuff well, which there are a few of but you know, you could find for sure that aren't us. It's they'll give you the real test if they're good of like, okay. not just what's your performance score, what is the speed in between your pages? And if I maybe like, I like doing circuits, like kind of like a lap, like a speed test lap. So I'll say, okay, we land on your page on a 4G connection with a server based in San Antonio, Texas, because most of your clients are in the States. So perfect, realistic situation. I'm on an iPhone 10 that I'm emulating, a mid 4G connection. So someone on the go who's got a few year old phone. Very realistic situation. I think I'm like on a 12 or something. I'm on an 11, don't judge. Yeah. There you go. Right. Yeah. If it's not broke, don't touch it. You click on it. So it's like, OK, how quick is it going to take for them to load the home page? All right. That's, you know, take one of the lap. Now they click on your your above the hero image, your shop. Now, how long your Black Friday, Cyber Monday special. Black Friday, Cyber Monday. How quick does it take until that fully loads? OK. They scroll down. How quick until it's fully interactive that they can scroll with no lag, or what's called cumulative layout shift, where you go to click on something and stuff's still moving around and you get annoyed? Yeah, I feel like it's a whack-a-mole game. huge part of site speed is fixing that CLS, that cumulative layout shift. So it everything's in its place right away. So even if it's not fully loaded, you just see a gray pane. That's like part of structuring correctly. So but anyways, how quick does that happen? How quick does add to cart work? Is there an animation for it? Is the animation buggy? How quick do you go to the cart? Oh, change my mind. How quick do you go back to pages really quickly back to the homepage. So we'll have like a bunch of little laps like that and how quick does that lap get complete and in its entirety. That's real speed. That's what a real speed situation is. And we'll test on Wi-Fi as well. Perfect connection on a M2 MacBook like I have. And of course, the MacBook doesn't make too much sense as a connection. But like, you know, that's that's what you should focus on as a as a as a operator of your website. And it's I equate it again to the offline in-store version. It's like, How quickly is someone coming to greet me? How friendly are they? How quickly are they asking me the right questions to get me moving towards the right part of the store? How effectively are they building rapport as we're walking to that area of the store? How's their eye contact? It's just all these, it's like the, you know, speeds version of, you know, how quickly are they relaying the information to me and not rambling random stuff and wasting my time.

Tim Rowe: Are they stumbling over their answers or do they have, you know, quick product knowledge?

Lukas Tanasiuk: Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Yeah, so that's that's that's a long answer. But just screw, screw the performance number. If you want to get a better understanding, it's okay, they blend some stuff together, but go to gt metrics.com gt m e t r i x.com. And run that test. And it's still based on the lighthouse speed test. But they do a couple other proprietary things to give you a slightly better than give you like an ABCDEF score. Okay, and I use the that allows me to emulate like a hundred different situations and phones. I mean, thousands if you multiply them by themselves. But the crazy thing is, just as an aside, GTmetrix, really well trusted, kind of old looking site. But the crazy thing is you load it and you go down to the bottom and there'll be some like little tips saying like, hey, wanna learn how to make your site faster? Follow this link, of course, right? They gotta make some money on this free test, but the link that says, want to make your site faster? click here and it brings you to Fiverr.com with this great speed optimization, which if you go there and go search this now that you're onto this stuff, go search speed optimization or Shopify speed improvement optimization on Fiverr or Upwork. Every freaking one of them are going to be people saying we get your score into the 90s plus guaranteed. They're all scams. So GTmetrix, this super genuine, legit, really well-meaning company is still perpetrating the scam to this scam. There's no way that those geniuses don't know about this to some extent. So one of my goals is to like become that for GT metrics and replace them and get to the scale that I can become the new fiber on their site. So they actually are getting their site optimized correctly because none of them, none of them, none of the fiber ones are, are doing it right. Unless you see one that's like, And I think about it from their perspective. They're all competing. They're just trying to make some money and make a better family, a better life. I mean, all of them are saying 90, 90, 90. And you have to be the one who most likely is English as your first, second, third, or fourth language have to communicate to these people. Actually, 90 is not possible. And let me bring it down to earth.

Tim Rowe: Let me tell you why 65 is better than the 90, because it's more real.

Lukas Tanasiuk: 65 is lunar for most mobile sites. Oh, is it good? That's good if it's legit. Yeah, yeah. If it's legit, and you're 65 mobile score, and you have a Shopify store that has a real app stack, if you get down to 65, that could still be a scam. There's a lot of sites that I see that are mobile. Because the thing is, they'll run the scam. They'll put the script on. But then if people add a bunch of products and stuff, that's built on top of this script. It can still supersede, depending on where it's positioned and how it loads, and how smart the scammer was with positioning their… How they structured the actual code. How they structured the whole scam. The worst is that a new pop-up will happen, so the pop-up will pop over top and it wasn't there before, and it immediately drops their speed score by like 30 points.

Tim Rowe: Oh, because it essentially knocked out the like malicious code. So now it's exposed what the real site speed is.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Yeah, well, it's still there. So the malicious code is still there. So the number would be even worse.

Tim Rowe: Oh, because now I have redundant code that doesn't work, which is detracting. Oh, my gosh. Lucas, there's going to be a part two.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Yeah. And I'm about to come up with a crazy expose on a, like I said, a massive venture backed gargantuan company that's doing this at a scale you couldn't even imagine.

Tim Rowe: Give us some sense. You said venture backed. It sounds like there's investors here.

Lukas Tanasiuk: There's lots of big customers. There's there's investors. It's it's it's insane. I'm working with some of the smartest developers in the space. And we're quadruple checking everything to make sure that what we're saying is for sure, because like the implications of when this goes live, the company is almost certainly not going to exist in its current form. And there's going to be some serious legal implications from their partners and their investors, because I'm certain they don't know what's going on here, or else they would have never taken the risk to invest millions of dollars into this company. And I don't want to say too much, but like this is, you know, they're charging 10, 20, 30, 40 thousand dollars a month. Wow. And some of the stuff they're doing is legit. And I'm sure they have a really talented team under them. But they made the silly decision of adding in some scripts that have no place, no place to be on there in any ethical way whatsoever. based on what we know so far, which is quite a bit and is growing every single minute the more we learn. So I'm really excited to share that because people are getting fleeced at enterprise levels with that company. And they're not alone. There's Shopify plugins that charge $500, $900 a month, which is still crazy money for a scam that are literally just automated And that's another one, another big red flag, any plugin or SaaS that says they can do full scale site speed optimization for Shopify stores, scam, scam, scam, scam. There's no possible way including any fancy GPT implications or AI where it's currently at today, November 21st, 2023, whatever day it is. There's no way, there's no way in which AI or any other automated technology can do full suite site speed optimization for a Shopify store. It has to be done manually and will have to be done manually. And very smart people have tried to do it. Nobody can. They're injecting cloaking scripts in one way or another, smart or stupid, into your site. And this is the last point, because we're already freaking an hour in. We go back into, remember I said, remember that number? Milliseconds make millions. Milliseconds make millions. That under three seconds, you have a drop off of 25%. One of the craziest things. is say you have a store and you're running, you're running Facebook Pixel, Google Pixel, Snapchat, TikTok, you have the tracking pixels. Typical stuff that you'd have running. To just get attribution for what's happening here. This is when I can't believe I didn't mention this yet. Hopefully for everyone still listening, you got a gem here or you can sound bit this part. anybody who has any version of this script on their site, it delays the actual genuine load time of the site by at best in our testing 2.5 seconds, which means and up to like on a on a fast 3G connection, they were taking 7 to 15 seconds to load.

Tim Rowe: So those pixels aren't firing until the load happens.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Those pixels aren't firing at best for 2.5 seconds. And based on that data I showed you, that means we're already 30% plus of the people have bounced or clicked on other stuff.

Tim Rowe: So I wasn't able to get, you know, I wasn't able to put a business card in their hand. I wasn't able to log them in my showroom, you know, log book or whatever. They're gone.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Maybe you did, but you don't know. You'll never have that data, so you can't act upon it. there's no attribution to any of those actions because that those pixels haven't loaded yet because of and solely because of this malicious script that's in here that's delaying those things by that long and on a slower connection it gets worse and worse so if we're talking even just like a fast 3g connection 15 seconds of people on your site that looks loaded, that's interactable, and they're clicking, they're moving, they're checking stuff out.

Tim Rowe: None of it's being attributed to the stuff that you're paying money to track. So now you have to spend more money to put more traffic on, and it's happening to everyone else in your space, which is driving ad supply or ad demand up, but there's a finite amount of supply. So your cost to acquire a customer continues to skyrocket. If you haven't figured out yet, This is a huge part of the problem.

Lukas Tanasiuk: It's nuclear. Nuclear. And it's pervasive. It's pervasive. Because if one person, think about Buddy, spends $100, gets the site speed up to $95, what does he do? Leaves a five-star review to perpetuate the scam unknowingly and tells all of his friends who run businesses as well. What a deal. Buy a score. Go see my guy. I did it to my friends. It's like, no, no, no. Don't waste your time with that. Boom. Scam continues. They keep, you know, skimming money and just destroying, destroying your site's reputation with Google and your real world analytics, real world page speed, real world on online user experience. It's just, it's like lose, lose, lose, lose, lose. There's nothing beneficial about it from the bottom to the top.

Tim Rowe: Lucas, give them the Latin long. Where can folks follow you? Get in touch. Give them all the directionals again, because this is not the last time we'll talk about this, but I'm sure there's going to be folks who want to get in touch.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Certainly not, yeah. So if you're an email person, lukas at the nice agency.co, Lukas at the nice agency.co, the nice agency.co, you can find us there, free site speed audit. So we'll actually go in and do all these tests. And if we find anything malicious, we'll notify you in that sense as well. You can find me on Twitter as I go by Lukas, I-G-O-B-Y-L-U-K-A-S. I'm gonna change that at some point, Yeah. Yeah. So the nice agency dot co. Check us out there. Email me at Lucas at the nice agency dot co. Twitter. I go by Lucas. LinkedIn. Lucas tenacity. L. U. K. A. S. T. A. N. A. S. I. U. K. Excellent.

Tim Rowe: We'll link to all of that so folks can get in touch as simply as possible. We will optimize the speed by which to connect to you, Lucas. Thank you so much.

Lukas Tanasiuk: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Tim Rowe: Absolutely. And if you found this to be helpful, please share it with someone who could benefit as always, make sure to smash that subscribe button and wherever you're listening to. And wherever you're listening from, make sure to leave the podcast review. That's how you help us grow. And we'll see y'all next time.